Speaker 1: 0:30

My name is Amy Harber. I am the managing attorney at a law firm by the name of Whitlock Law PLLC. We are a full-purpose law firm that just opened its Leesburg office doors. Congratulations, but thank you. We have been in existence since 2017. We were founded by Morgan Whitlock, our owner, so we are a woman-owned business, and she had been operating as a solo practitioner in Maryland and Virginia for many years by the time she opened the firm. It was originally just a personal injury law firm. We serve plaintiff personal injury cases, but with our expansion into the Leesburg brick and mortar market, we are representing clients in criminal and traffic defense, protective orders, expungements, insurance disputes and a whole slew of other services.

Speaker 2: 1:14

Oh my goodness, it's only expanded for the better right.

Speaker 1: 1:16

Yes, absolutely. More services to help more people. I love that.

Speaker 2: 1:19

And now, what inspired you to pursue a career in law, and how has your journey evolved over the years?

Speaker 1: 1:25

Ooh it may be easier for me to answer the second part of that. Really, I started a career in law because I didn't know what I wanted to do. Actually, I wanted to serve people. I wanted to actually be a victim advocate when I was in college and took a very roundabout way to get there. I worked for a newspaper for a little while. I was doing communications and then, on a whim, I decided to apply for law school and got in, just on a whim, on a whim and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do.

Speaker 1: 1:49

I actually got a job. I got into a couple of law schools. I got waitlisted at a few law schools and I got a job as a victim advocate. So then I was like, do I really need to go to law school to do what I want to do? And decided to go at night. So I worked in that job while I was in law school down in the Fredericksburg area, and when I finished law school I decided to become a prosecutor, and so I worked as a prosecutor in the Tidewater area in the city of Hampton for four years and then moved up here to Loudoun.

Speaker 1: 2:19

County where I was a prosecutor from 2012 to 2020. I pivoted during COVID. I had a son right at the beginning of COVID and I have a COVID baby and decided that I needed to do something that wasn't going to have me in office in public every day, which definitely a prosecution job was. So I pivoted and went to work for all state insurance companies. So I went from government to Fortune 50. And I worked there until mid-year last year actually toward the end of last year, About 12 months before I left that job.

Speaker 1: 2:48

I knew I was going to be leaving that job and so I started doing a lot of business, coaching, investigation. Do I want to open my own law firm? Do I want to go in with someone established? I had a number of opportunities that were all great opportunities for different reasons, but Morgan and I had actually tried cases against each other a number of times over the four years that I was with Allstate and we respected each other. We really got to know and got to like each other, and she had goals for expanding into a brick and mortar in Virginia and I was able to match with her goals to do that. So we teamed up at that point and here we are.

Speaker 2: 3:22

That is incredible and the fact that you were able to find someone that, like you, can work side by side with and you guys had cases against each other. I love that. I think that's so.

Speaker 1: 3:30

I think it was important to be a woman in the industry and you know, see another strong personality woman who was not afraid to go into court, not afraid to advocate for their clients and wasn't afraid of winning, wasn't afraid of losing. You know, there are some people that don't want to try a case unless they've got everything locked up to a tee. And I'm not like that and she's not like that. And you know, certainly we both won our fair share and lost our fair share against each other.

Speaker 2: 3:58

But it's nice to be on the same side. I love that Good for you and I'm so happy that you're able to open your practice now and do your own thing. Was it really important for you to not just like, not only just join one, but but also be like, I guess, co-owner, co-founder.

Speaker 1: 4:08

I wouldn't say I'm a co-owner and allows me to be involved in management decisions make a lot of the management decisions when it comes to Virginia.

Speaker 1: 4:31

That was one of the things when I was looking to different opportunities. I didn't feel like I was going to have that same autonomy in some of the other places. As much as I like the practitioners and respected what I was going to learn and bring to the table, I went off vibes and I felt like Morgan was going to be the person to really allow me to put my own feel on the Virginia brand of this practice. And she has done that. Awesome. I love it.

Speaker 2: 4:48

And then what sets your practice apart in terms of client advocacy and legal strategy.

Speaker 1: 4:53

So I think, especially when it comes to personal injury work, there are a lot of personal injury firms that I would say screen clients by the level of injury, the level of insurance coverage and that sort of thing. That's not that uncommon in this industry because obviously when you're in a law practice you are running a business and it needs to be profitable. So we do have clients that come to us that say, well, so-and-so, wouldn't take me because I wasn't heard enough or my bills weren't big enough. We really pride ourselves on taking big cases and small cases. So, you know, morgan tried a case last year and got a, you know, a seven-figure verdict in Prince William County. We also try cases where we get, you know, $1,000. And every case is important for its different reasons. We really try to serve, you know, to open up the legal services available in the DC metropolitan area, in the Loudoun County area, in the Silver Spring, where our Maryland office is area, to serve clients that may not be getting representation at their places.

Speaker 2: 5:50

Wow, that's awesome. So like, no matter how much.

Speaker 1: 5:53

No matter how big or too small. I mean, and we really do believe that. You know we are pretty involved with the community, Morgan, you know we take on pro bono clients or pro bono issues. We do a lot of consults. We do free consults, which not every firm does, especially not for criminal and traffic. But we try to give people the tools to self-help to the extent that they are able. But we try to give people the tools to self-help to the extent that they are able and then also, at the same time, let people know how we can help them and why an attorney can add value to their situation or their case or could provide for a better outcome. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 6:25

And in your office. How many people do you guys have in your office? Is it just the two of you or do you have any like back end help?

Speaker 1: 6:31

We have I believe there's 18 staff at this point. We have I believe there's 18 staff at this point. We have two and a half people in the Leesburg office at the moment. We are actually hiring. We just listed another position today but the goal is to expand the Leesburg office and the Virginia presence. But yeah, we have intake managers, we have settlement managers, we have financial and HR people, we have case managers. So Morgan built that all herself. She built it from the ground up and she takes a lot of pride in that, and she should, because it's very, very difficult.

Speaker 2: 7:00

Absolutely, girl boss, girl bossing it out Absolutely Love it. And now, how do you integrate your civil and criminal law experience to provide comprehensive legal solutions for your clients?

Speaker 1: 7:13

I think it's not as common to have someone with my type of experience. You do see a lot of people that work for, let's say, insurance companies or insurance defense and they go into plaintiff work, or you have a lot of people that are prosecutors and then go into private defense. You don't generally have someone who is sat on all four sides, and so I think that that is helpful to people because it allows me to spot issues that might impact one side more than you know, than another person might consider. It allows me to you know, potentially, especially in personal injury, find other areas of insurance coverage or other means for someone to get bills paid In criminal defense. You know it can allow me to prepare a client for collateral impacts of a conviction that they might not have already thought of or they may not have direct experience with.

Speaker 2: 8:01

Awesome, I love that. No, yeah, and then having like being a prosecutor and then being in the courtroom, like all that stuff I feel like adds to the perspective and how the client is feeling when they're inside that courtroom or just dealing with like anything that has to do with a court case. I'm sure they're nervous. Do you ever get any clients who are feeling like, hey, I have an issue, but I feel like I'm not going to win this case? How do you deal or talk to them when it comes to setting expectations?

Speaker 1: 8:27

So I will tell you I'm a truth bomber. I love it. No, that's good. There are people that want to come in and they want to hold hands and pat shoulders. There are people that want to come in and they want to hold hands and pat shoulders and I very much can be like that and I am like that. That's my natural empathy.

Speaker 1: 8:40

But when it comes to try to set expectations, it's important for me to be upfront at first. So I generally say tell me a little bit about what happened, and then I'll stop someone because I don't want to get too far into the nitty gritty if they haven't retained me and we don't have that attorney client relationship yet. But I'll say okay, based on your situation, here's what I think might be the worst case scenario. Here's something that I think you need to prepare for. Here's what I think is realistic and here is how I can help you achieve that outcome. Sometimes you get people that say, well, I don't think that that's good enough. I want you to get this charge dismissed. And I'll say you know, I appreciate that that's what you want.

Speaker 1: 9:19

I don't think that's realistic and I'm probably not the attorney for you, but I think setting expectations up front, whether it's a criminal or traffic defense, whether it's an insurance dispute or, you know, personal injury case, you know there are cases that are seven figures, there are cases that are six figures, there are also cases that are four figures, there are cases that are $500. And you just need to make sure that people understand the appropriate I love that.

Speaker 2: 9:40

I love that style because, like you, don't want to waste their time either, so it's better to just get everything out on the table and be like look, I'm not the person for you, but I think I have someone who can help you.

Speaker 1: 9:49

I happily refer out. I refer out to other practice areas. Obviously, I don't practice family law. I send people all the time. But it's always interesting to me, especially on social media, when people are like give me the best lawyer. It's like what do you want a lawyer for? Do you want an aggressive lawyer that's going to charge you a big bill and fight it every turn? Do you want somebody collaborative? Do you want somebody to try to reach a settlement or to think of novel strategies to keep you out of a courtroom, or to think of novel strategies to keep you out of a courtroom? Do you want somebody sensitive to the fact that you may have an employment situation like a security clearance, or you may be facing some sort of immigration proceeding and you don't want to raise too much attention to yourself? You need somebody who considers all of those things, and the best person is not the same person for everybody, so you can't take it personally if somebody doesn't pick you, but you also need to make it clear what you're able to do and what you're not.

Speaker 2: 10:38

Absolutely, I love that. And, speaking of social media, I want to ask you what are you doing for marketing and what's working for you and what's not, as far as like getting your name out there, making sure that all the right people are seeing you, and what you're doing and what you're able to do. Do you go to, maybe, networking events? Sure.

Speaker 1: 10:55

Yep, so I, me personally, the firm, the firm uses a marketing firm and they. That was that's a pre-established relationship that Morgan had prior to my joining the firm and that was really focused on developing the personal injury marketing material when we opened the Leesburg office. I have been very community integrated since I moved to Loudoun County in 2012. And I serve on a number I used to serve on a number of boards and commissions in the town. I've kept a lot of the connections that I have. I'm part of the Loudoun Bar Foundation, loudoun Bar Association.

Speaker 1: 11:26

I have been regularly contributing and posting and recommending people on the Loudoun County Social Collective and I went to my first networking, too, with them last month. And you know we just do a number of activities. Our firm in terms of the Leesburg marketing approach, I guess you could say we are. You know we've donated to local scholarship funds, we are sponsoring one of the Thomas D Horn Leadership in the Law Camp this year. We've sponsored a Dulles Little League team and we are a gold sponsor of the Loudon Pride Festival this weekend, may 31st. Yes, so I think that our job is, you know, we want to be out there organically. We want to get out there and meet people. We want to talk to people because that's the best way to make people understand really how you can help them and how you are distinguishable from other people that they might look up on Google.

Speaker 2: 12:14

Yeah, I agree 100%. It's important. Yes, you can make that impact online, but what better way to do it than doing it in person and getting to meet your community? So I think that's awesome. And then, what are your goals or plans five years from now? Where do you hope?

Speaker 1: 12:28

to be? That's a very interesting question Me personally. Where do I hope to be? I hope to have it all figured out right, don't we all?

Speaker 1: 12:36

go, going from a very structured government practice to a very structured corporate practice to now a very individualized private practice, has been a great challenge. It's been a challenge, but it's been a great challenge because you have to learn what systems work for you, what staffing order works for you, what calendaring procedures and that sort of thing. I would like that in the next six to 12 months, to feel very good. I would like to have a larger staff of individuals that are working on the same types of cases that Leesburg has expanded into criminal and traffic defense as well as the insurance disputes. Have other attorneys, have other staff members. I know that Morgan would like to have different offices in Virginia available and have more staff that are also working in Virginia and Maryland as well. So just keep growing, but growing in a smart and organic way in a way that we really continue to feel like we're serving people.

Speaker 1: 13:30

There are a number of law firms that are mills, essentially for processing things, and there are people that want that, and those mills do a very good job at what they're good at, but we don't want to do that. We don't want to be that. So the challenge is always growing smartly in a way that you continue to serve clients, you continue to provide personalized service and you can serve the type of people that you want to continue to serve.

Speaker 2: 13:52

I think that's a great goal, because what better way to keep growing but also not lose that personal connection and quality with your clients and with your colleagues? Just being able to grow and expand on that end and making sure that what made you guys stand out is still what's making you stand out and you don't lose sight of that, right? I think that's incredible. And now, what do you do on your free time and how do you balance that with the work that you're doing right now?

Speaker 1: 14:16

Right now I have a child who is very involved in birthday parties and social activities. Now my free time I like to. You know, before I had children I was a very regular consumer of local concerts, local music, local vineyards and breweries. Since I've had a son, that's shifted a little bit, but we do a lot of sports. We are, you know, part of the Victory Martial Arts family in Leesburg. We are part of Dulles Little League. I'm a member at the Row House Ashburn location, which I really enjoy doing, and so supporting local businesses. It's just a little bit different than it used to be. So, you know, building relationships and doing that type of things, I, my husband and I, um are are foodies, so we do a lot of um special occasion, try to tour Michelin. You know types of locations and, uh, I would like to travel more.

Speaker 2: 15:07

Um, hopefully that will pick up like international, international, yes, okay, is there a one place that you're like you've got your eyes?

Speaker 1: 15:13

set. There's a lot of places I have my eyes set on. The most realistic I would love to my husband's. Actually, my husband is very well traveled, but he has never really spent any substantial time in London, so I and I have spent time in London, so I would need to get him and the rest of the family over there. Poland and Central America have some familial connections to me, so those are probably higher up on the list.

Speaker 2: 15:35

Very cool. I can't wait, Like when you go, I'll be checking your Instagram and be like yep, she went there. Yes, central America she made it yes, knock on wood. And now let's see In your experience, how do emotional and legal challenges intersect and how do you support clients through?

Speaker 1: 15:49

this no-transcript things that you can and the things that you can control and the things that you can't. I met with a client's family this morning and you know, one of the things I was relaying to them is you cannot control how other people react to the situation, and so the thing that you can control is how you communicate with those other people, and I think that there is a variation of that conversation that happens at each time. You know how do we enter, you know untie them together, and that's you have to control what you can control and and process the things that you can process with a lawyer and then perhaps through therapy or through other means.

Speaker 2: 16:56

Absolutely. And then what about for yourself? Are there ever any like emotional cases, that like tug at your heart? Maybe, or maybe you've, hopefully not, but I know sometimes that can happen because we're only human. Like maybe you're thinking about it and you can't go to sleep, you're tossing and turning. How do you find ways to disconnect from that?

Speaker 1: 17:19

Cause that can take a toll on your mental health, like pouring so much, and that happened a lot when I was in prosecution and doing direct victim advocacy, and I think that it took me a long time to figure out how to unwind from that in a healthy way. Therapy helps, yes, don't try to say that.

Speaker 1: 17:30

Therapy helps and I recommend that to individuals that need it. I think that finding a healthy outlet, whether it be just spending more time with your family, you know dedicate, making sure that work does not become your entire life, you know, spending time with the things that make you happy, incorporating fitness and other stress relief into your life, is really important to do that. But there are always cases. But there are always cases I mean even now. You know, in this particular line of work that I'm in right now where you feel like some unjust you know situation has occurred and you have to strategize. It does require after hours thoughts and lots of, you know, contemplation about how can I make the situation the best, you know outcome possible for my client, but without, you know, also tearing me down in the process.

Speaker 2: 18:13

Yeah, absolutely. I love that you're self-aware about that, because I know some lawyers really take. It depends, and you got to have a strong personality. I feel like I would like. This is why I'm not a lawyer. First of all, I could never be one, but I just be like constantly thinking. But I'm an overthinker, so that's going to happen anywhere I go, so it's not just a lawyer.

Speaker 1: 18:29

I mean lawyers are all overthinkers and we're all perfectionists in a very strange way. You wouldn't necessarily know that by walking into my office, but you know we all want to do the right thing and get the right outcome and a lot of thought goes into what that is. You know, for each individual client and that's the hard thing. It's not. You know you check a box every single time. Every client has a very uniquely different situation and you have to really understand all of the ways that situation could pan out before you can really help them.

Speaker 2: 18:58

Absolutely Well said. If you weren't a lawyer, what alternate career path might you have pursued?

Speaker 1: 19:06

Well, I was on a communications line for a while, so I would say that probably that would have been my default. But what would I be good at? I'm like one of those fixer people and I'm going to tell a quick story about that. When I was, I got voted in my law firm's superlatives at the end of the year. As the Olivia Pope which I was, I took a lot of pride in because that actually would be my alternate career. I would be a fixer, I would be somebody who comes into situations and tries to make them more efficient and you know, I don't know what the actual job title is for that, but that's my jam.

Speaker 2: 19:36

I love it. And I was also kind of thinking of you just like a fixer-upper, like oh, did this break? I got you, Let me just get my toolbox. No, no, no, I'm not manual.

Speaker 1: 19:42

It's just, it's a okay organizationally. Here's how we could do things better to have. I don't know what you call that person, but I could be that.

Speaker 2: 19:54

Someone who has their ish together. I'm not sure that.

Speaker 1: 19:56

I'm that either, but that person I could be. I could be a professional. Olivia Pope.

Speaker 2: 20:01

I love that. So does that mean that you've got everything scheduled out and this is this at noon and then I've got this at three?

Speaker 1: 20:09

You could ask my staff that, and I would be curious to see what they say. I also won the email vigilante superlative as well.

Speaker 2: 20:16

Okay, yes, possibly, yes, I'm seeing where this is going now with you. And then what's the most unexpected case you worked on that turned out to be a career highlight for you. If you've had one or maybe not a career highlight, but something, maybe that stood out too.

Speaker 1: 20:31

You know, I think the career highlights are not, you know, judged by win and loss, you know record or anything like that. I think that the career highlights for me have been cases where horrible things happened, where I have formed a relationship with the people that they happened to prosecution years, a family that lost their son, unfortunately very tragically, that I met in a time of personal struggle for me while they were going through immense grief, and you know they were really helpful to me and they weren't trying to be helpful to me. I was their advocate. But seeing their family and the way that they cope with tragedy profoundly impacted me and I think that that's a career highlight that I was able to provide some relief or comfort to them when that happened.

Speaker 1: 21:16

And then, in a different situation, a professional acquaintance who I had known for many years got also involved in a tragic situation and I was never particularly close to that person in a tragic situation and I was never particularly close to that person. But in the course of preparing that case for trial, that person decided that they wanted to go to law school and finish up school and now is actually probably either just graduated this week or is moving on to bigger and better things down too. So getting to have a whole new perspective on that professional relationship and actually develop a personal relationship and a friendship because of that, that was a highlight, wow, and it had nothing to do with how the case turned out.

Speaker 1: 21:51

No, absolutely Both of them turned out fine for us, but I mean, it was really the relationships that you form with people, absolutely, and then I want to ask you where do you see yourself with the company Like later on?

Speaker 2: 22:03

do you maybe think about being co-owner, maybe, or is that even an option?

Speaker 1: 22:07

for you. I think if you asked Morgan it would, it would be an option at some point down the road.

Speaker 2: 22:12

I whether or not myself here, sorry no.

Speaker 1: 22:14

And I think that I think that that's a fair question, and I'm I'm not sure that I want to be in the spotlight. I'm not sure that I want my name on the wall. I'm not. You know, that was something that I really struggled with when I was trying to determine the next step before I got here. Do I want to open my own practice? Is this for me? And I'm not sure that it is. I like managing things, I like making things efficient, I like doing my work, but at the end of the day, I'm not sure that I am just fine without that level of responsibility also and being able to have more time to dedicate to my clients, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 22:49

No, sorry if I put you on the spot.

Speaker 1: 22:52

No, that's fine. I think it's a valid question and I think a lot of people that, especially in private practice, they aspire to do that. I was never really one of those people and I'm not sure as much as I love private practice I'm not sure that I have become one of those people either that is fair, that is fair.

Speaker 2: 23:07

I'm like that too. So I was just, you know, being nosy there for a moment.

Speaker 1: 23:10

No, that's fine.

Speaker 2: 23:11

Is there anything that I have not touched on that perhaps you would like to get out there and share about yourself or your industry. You have the floor. Maybe you want to write a book one day, or maybe you want to mentor.

Speaker 1: 23:21

Yeah, you know mentoring is important and I would just say that you know our firm is very open to mentorship opportunities If you have a college student or a high school student and you happen to be listening that is interested in the legal field, in law practice, or perhaps a recent grad, or perhaps somebody who is in between careers and just wants to learn more. I have a senior capstone student right now from Rockridge High School with me. We have a college George Mason student in our Maryland office right now and we frequently talk to other groups about the legal industry and law practice and we're happy to share, especially with young women, all of the opportunities that the law can present. You don't have to be in a courtroom, you don't have to be arguing for people. You can do all sorts of things to really impact clients in a positive way.

Speaker 2: 24:08

That is so awesome that you guys offer that.

Speaker 1: 24:10

I feel like some people would be like, well, there are some people that definitely don't want to do it, and it's a lot of time and it's a lot of energy and it requires a lot of organization.

Speaker 1: 24:19

but it's important and it's really important, especially in this industry and the state of the world right now for young people to have mentors and for young people to get a practical experience. I mean, when I was in college and I worked at a newspaper, that was what made me decide I didn't want to be a journalism major, and I'm very. It was an invaluable experience for that, because what if I had spent many, many years preparing to do that and then only found that out after I'd done all that?

Speaker 2: 24:42

training. So we, you know, I think those are good and bad, and we're happy to share our experiences all the time. And now you touched on it Well, maybe two times you had mentioned it and I heard it's either women owned or it's important to have, like, women leadership. Why is that so important to you guys?

Speaker 1: 24:59

I think that you know any number of us and I will say I'll preface this by saying I didn't really feel this when I was working for government in a corporate so much. But in private practice there are people that think that because they have a certain level of experience or they are wearing a suit and can speak louder than everybody else, that they have the most important opinion in the room. And I think that diversity of experience and diversity of life experience is very important to the practice of law and I think that it's important. You know, representation is important and I think that if you are in trouble or you are in a situation where some trauma has happened to you and you need a lawyer, you know some people would very much prefer to have someone who looks like them, who has some shared, you know experience and shared understanding of the situations that they're in.

Speaker 2: 25:52

I have to agree. Even with doctors. I'm like that too, so I get it. And then what's one myth about lawyers or the legal system that you'd love to debunk?

Speaker 1: 26:01

I will debunk the ambulance chaser. You know, especially being involved with personal injury law, you hear a lot of people and I see it a lot on social media posts.

Speaker 1: 26:11

Oh, these people are just out for money. They're just trying to chase ambulances, and I wish all of those people that really think that would come and just sit down. I'd be happy to buy you coffee and explain all of the different ways a lawyer can add value to a claim, and when I say add value, I don't mean make you see fake doctors and try to run up your medical bills. That's not it. I think people forget that insurance companies are corporations and they are in the business of making a significant profit. Most of them are in the fortune 100, if not 50, and their goal is not to look out for individuals and there are a lot of things that if you don't hire an attorney, that will get missed in those claims, and so you know. Certainly there are any number of people that are out there that can help you.

Speaker 2: 26:54

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. And then this one's a funny one, but what's your favorite legal movie or TV show and how accurately does it depict the profession?

Speaker 1: 27:02

That's so fascinating because I'm watching the Lincoln Lawyer right now. I've not heard of that. I'm watching the TV show. There was a movie a number of years ago. I'd seen the movie but I am now just watching the Lincoln Lawyer and I have difficulty watching a lot of legal shows a lot because they're not realistic. But I think that most lawyers would tell you their favorite courtroom scenes are the Jack Nicholson cross-examination in A Few Good Men that Tom Cruise does. That's one of the. I mean that's like every lawyer's dream to have that. And then my Cousin Vinny and you know the expert testimony there. I think that those are more realistic portrayals. You know, I think a lot of like the law and orders and the suits and that sort of thing really underplay and they make things a lot sexier than they really are. You know it's great we're in court a lot and we argue a lot, but very little of it goes actually like that so thoughts on Legally Blonde.

Speaker 1: 27:55

Legally Blonde is not realistic but it's entertaining for what it is. Yeah, I mean it's not realistic, but I mean I mean it's not a totally off presentation of law school. I mean, you know, sitting in a room and getting called on at random, that's about accurate. But yeah, I don't foresee that situation playing out in real life.

Speaker 2: 28:12

Fair enough. Thank you for sharing that with me Now. Do you have any parting words before I ask you my last question? I don't think so.

Speaker 1: 28:20

No, Now I'm curious about your last question, my last question.

Speaker 2: 28:22

Okay, do you have a quote, a saying or maybe a mantra that you like to live your life by or that has inspired you in any way that you would like to share?

Speaker 1: 28:36

Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. It's been the same for many, many years now. You can't judge a book by its cover. People change. People change for the better, people change for the worse, and you have to evaluate your relationships with people where they are right now.

Speaker 2: 28:45

Oh my goodness, that was a good one. You were ready for that.

Speaker 1: 28:47

I was ready for that one. I always put people on the spot with that one, but not you. That one I do. I had to do better.

Speaker 2: 28:51

I'm just kidding. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 1: 28:53

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2: 28:54

I really enjoyed it, me too. Come back again.