Speaker 1: 0:30

Sandra Guzman-Salvado. I'm an attorney practicing family law in Maryland and throughout Maryland Frederick Montgomery, prince George's County. Anne Arundel Howard. Beautiful.

Speaker 2: 0:44

So I'd like to ask you I'm just going to go right in what motivated you to specialize in family law, and how did your experience at the Legal Aid Bureau influence your career path?

Speaker 1: 0:54

Well, I like helping people with their problems. I always did. I'm a good listener. So I felt that the Legal Aid Bureau was a good place to start, because I think that if you enjoy helping people that don't have much to fight over and they are at their worst and you have a good leadership team to sort of guide you on what to do, which is what they had for me I, you know I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 1:23

I that was a great foundation because, you know, it's really more emotional than anything at that level, like a lot of custody, fighting, a lot of like really angry people. And you know, the mentors I had there were really helpful in helping me understand, like how to manage it, how to you know guide them, and so learning that at a very early stage helped me sort of go from there and realize like this is what I want to do, this is what I'm good at me, sort of go from there and realize like this is what I want to do, this is what I'm good at. You know, I'm always trying to understand, like, the stage that people are in and if I, you know, I read things, I listen to things myself, so I'll like hear something and I'll use it and then I'll like tell someone about it that I'm talking to, and then just they feel better. Yes, so I just felt like okay, like I'm pretty good at this, so I just kept going with it. You found your calling.

Speaker 2: 2:19

Yes Sounds like yeah. Yes, that's awesome. And now can you share the story behind establishing your bilingual family law firm in Montgomery County, Maryland?

Speaker 1: 2:29

Sure, sure. So I worked at various different firms before I decided to start my own, and so I did find that that was a great tool to have, just being bilingual. I know that when I was in high school, a friend of my mom's needed an attorney that spoke Spanish, and it was just impossible to find a family law attorney that spoke Spanish, and I remember getting her an attorney that didn't speak Spanish but had an assistant that spoke Spanish.

Speaker 1: 3:01

So so later on I just started my practice and I, a lot of you know, I'm bilingual, so a lot of the Spanish community came to me and I advised them in their language and they just felt so at ease, right, to be able to, you know, speak Spanish and understand, and a lot of it has to do with just like culture, understanding culture, because I also mediate and so in mediation you're like a neutral.

Speaker 1: 3:29

So sometimes, you know, I'll just say things that you know resonate with them and then they're able to just like move forward. Yeah, you know. So I just I understand like the subtle jabs or like the you know the condescending remarks, and I'll just put a stop to it and say you know what that's not helpful, like we have to move forward. Yes, and you know, and I'll tell them a little bit about my story. You know, I'll just say you know I'm Salvadorian, and you know, and I'll tell them a little bit about my story. You know, I'll just say, you know I'm a Salvadorian and you know I do this to help people.

Speaker 1: 4:04

You know, maybe I'm appointed by the court, but you know they don't pay anything. I'm just doing it to help you out here, because I've seen these cases for many years and you know, I'm just letting you know how it may go if you guys don't try to work it out yourselves. And so, coming from someone that is also Hispanic, I think that they respect that and so they're able to settle. So I would say, 90% of the cases that I'm mediating, I will settle just because they get the sense that I've been there or know the culture and can move forward. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:37

No, I think that is an incredible asset. You are an incredible asset because, like you said, it's not very often that you see a lot of like Hispanic attorneys, lawyers, and it can be really hard, especially when there's that language barrier. They don't feel seen, they don't feel heard, they're just like. Sometimes maybe they don't even go through with some of the things that they want to or need to, just because of that lack of understanding. So the fact that you have opened that door for people oh my gosh, that is incredible.

Speaker 2: 5:04

So kudos to you for being that voice for la gente. Yes, that is awesome.

Speaker 1: 5:10

Thank you so kudos to you.

Speaker 2: 5:12

Yeah, absolutely. And then how does your firm approach cases involving divorce, child custody and domestic violence to ensure clients feel supported throughout the legal process.

Speaker 1: 5:24

So there's a lot of contact involved. So I've set, you know, things in place in my office where, as soon as someone hires, the very next day, they get a call to set them in for a strategy session. Because I find that as soon as you give someone money, you know you have expectations and you're not sure if you hired the right person. And you just, you know, I thought, no matter how small or large that sum is, it's important. And so I talk to them right at the beginning this is what we're doing, these are the expectations. And then I tell them what I'm doing when I'm doing it. By then it gets done. Then we talk again and then it's like, okay, well, this is happening next and this is what you should know.

Speaker 1: 6:09

And then they feel at ease, knowing, because they're like they've never been through this journey most of the time right. So just knowing and being able to ask any question you want right before it makes you feel comfortable. So then that happens and then, right after the event, then we talk again. Then we say okay, like let's, do you have questions about what just happened? Okay, what's happening next? You know what are we doing. So I feel like there's a lot of touching base that happens, and so it isn't just with me but, like I have assistants that you know can also step in and remind them of things or, you know, call them to inquire about you know something that we were waiting for. So there's. I think that that's the key is just staying in touch, right, because I I often hear people say, like my attorney never contacted me or they never returned my call, or like you just feel so like unseen and unimportant, and just like you're just you, you want to matter right.

Speaker 2: 7:10

You want to matter and.

Speaker 1: 7:11

I just look at it as like with people that I've done business with, like I'm very loyal. So if, for example, I have the same nail persons for over 10 years, I have the same hair person, I have the same just person that does things If they're good and they just give me that vibe that they care like I'll keep them forever. Period.

Speaker 1: 7:32

I just will never get rid of them, like someone will come along and it's just like I will not cheat on them. So that's how I feel about the client. Like you know it, just you. I don't want to take them for granted, because I think that during the pandemic I think that was a big lesson for people, right when people were just scarce you start to think like Whoa, did I take this or that for granted or whatever, and so now you have to treat them all special because I mean, they are right, they all have their like individual struggle, and so that's really what it's about is, just, it is hard, right, because the bigger you get and the more clients you get, it is harder to give off or convey that you really care. But I think that as long as they're having contact with someone in my office or myself and they still feel like you know that we have, like they're number one and they are important and we're not going to miss anything for them.

Speaker 2: 8:29

No, that is incredible, and the fact that you have a team there to help you and you have a system to make sure that, as you get busy, you're not forgetting them or losing that special connection that you have with them. That is so important that you're not keeping them in the dark. You're letting them know hey, we're going to fill out this paperwork because this is actually going to be helping you with this. So I know it's an extra step, but I just want you to know that it's going to benefit you if we do it this way, like just explaining everything, as opposed to like yeah, don't worry, I got it. Like go home, it's okay. Like I love that you do that. And, especially since, again, you speak Spanish and English, I'm sure they appreciate that so much. Like I grew up with parents and I was their translator and I would help them.

Speaker 2: 9:08

So I know how it goes when it's like somebody you feel seen and the fact that your background you're from El Salvador like they feel seen, the fact that your background you're from El Salvador like they feel seen.

Speaker 1: 9:17

So that's absolutely yeah. No, I mean, I know the phobias people have. People hate filling out forms, people hate gathering things, and I'm always like okay, like I can be as involved or my team can be as involved or as less involved as you want, like, and sometimes people are just struggling mentally like it's just too, just too much. So I'm like look, listen, come in, my assistant will sit down with you and log into every account that you have, right there next to you, a printer's attached, so all you have to do is hit, print, you know, and like. So people just really like that, because sometimes, like they've lost their jobs or you know, it's just they're stressed out, right, because now they're like a single parent and they have too many things that they've got to juggle and deal with, and and so I try to convey to them that, like I'm there, like put it all on me, like put it all on us really in the office, like that's the one thing you don't have to worry about anymore is is your legal problems.

Speaker 2: 10:19

Right, yeah, thank you, yeah, and then let's see, I've got so many questions here. I want to ask you In what ways does offering bilingual services enhance your firm's ability to serve the diverse community in Maryland?

Speaker 1: 10:29

Well, I think that it definitely helps to offer bilingual service. I think that right now it varies from time to time, but I think that, for example, right now I have more, you know, I'd say, bilingual or Spanish speaking only clients. Right now, and it changes over time, like last year, I think it was just maybe 40% of my clientele was like bilingual or just Spanish, and then this year it started off with just a higher level of and I think, for a lot of different reasons, in my area there are a lot of attorneys that it's the kind of profession that you do end up getting burnt out. You know you can, right, get burnt out. And so a lot of them, like, went to the government. They no longer have practices in near where I am, or some of them, you know, just retired, right, they've been around forever. So I think that a lot of times when other attorneys are no longer there, then they, you know, they have to figure okay, like who's left that does practices family law, that speaks Spanish or speaks my language, and so, yeah, and I have a group of colleagues right, because sometimes I mean, we're not.

Speaker 1: 11:41

I don't know the Hispanic attorneys I know in my area, we're not competitive, like that. I mean we have a mindset of, like there's enough clients for everybody. I mean that's just. Maybe I don't know the ones that are competitive, but all the ones I know. Like we refer clients back and forth to each other, like it's just not a big deal, like there's somebody else that will come along. It's just so we're there to help.

Speaker 1: 12:03

And I know the people that I know like really care and want to do a good job for whoever it is. So I wouldn't if I was recommending someone because maybe I didn't have that day free or maybe they're looking for a different take on the situation, like I wouldn't recommend them to someone I didn't think was going to do a really good job, think was going to do a really good job. So that's really what I have is like if I can't help you, you know I will put you in the hands of someone that can. I'm not just going to be like, oh, I can't help you. Goodbye, go on Google. Like you know. Like, because there's just too much. Like where do you even go? Like, sometimes I've called businesses and they're like well, I can't help you, but here's this information and I'm just like the way that I'm treated is really the way that I want to treat people. You know, I appreciate that like heads up.

Speaker 2: 12:51

Yes, no, absolutely. That's awesome and I like that. You have a community there that's not competitive and you guys are willing to help each other, send some referrals or people where it's like you know what this person specializes in this.

Speaker 1: 13:11

Let specializes in this. Let me go ahead and send you over there, and you know you, you've got their back too. So that's awesome. Yeah, I love when it's not competitive in caddy. Yeah, no, it really isn't. I mean, I I'm trying to think of, like um, you know anyone that it's ever I've never had that kind of relationship with anybody. You know, I know a lot of, like, female attorneys in the area that like started around the time that I did and then, you know, have done a lot of great things and I don't know I, I just I admire them Like you know what I mean. And so there are things that they've done that I'm still yet to do, yeah, and there are things I'm sure they're thinking, oh, she's doing it. So then I kind of noticed they do it too. So it's really just about learning from each other. Right, I love it, keep it up y'all.

Speaker 2: 13:47

Thanks. Can you discuss the importance of programs like Self-Represented Litigants Project and how they impact the community?

Speaker 1: 13:56

So it's really helpful when those organizations get involved and represent people that can't afford representation. It's always easier to help a situation when both parties are represented right. And so you know, for example, if someone's not represented, they don't know their rights, they don't know, they have this idea that all attorneys are out to get them or take advantage of them, and so it's difficult to try a case with someone that's not represented, or negotiate with someone that's not represented, or negotiate with someone that's not represented. So having those organizations to help and guide those that need it and can't afford it because you know, let's face it, it's very expensive to hire an attorney so it helps too, because at the end of the day I mean, if it's a bad result because someone's unrepresented, it may come back. You know, on appeal it may come back just as a modification. So people are back in court all over again. So just being able to resolve it properly with two people that have attorneys is, you know, is really helpful for all really.

Speaker 2: 15:01

Absolutely no. I'm so glad that there's resources out there for people and I know, speaking on that, what are some other misconceptions that a lot of people have in your industry when it comes to an attorney?

Speaker 1: 15:13

So one is that you know they're all like if you're an attorney, you know all areas of law, right, and you don't. I'm very, very specialized, like I know divorce and custody and child support and protective orders, like really, really well. But if you ask me about wills or you ask me about accidents, like I 'll generally know, but I don't even try. I'm just like here's my colleague list and please go to them. You know. So that's one thing. And two, that they're just expensive, period Right, and so you stop because you're just like they're all the same. But reality is it's just like a free market. I mean there is a price. Different attorneys charge different prices. I mean, some people that I know just work by themselves, right, they just never wanted to hire staff, they didn't want an office, and so what does that do? Well, that helps them keep their costs low, and so they're able to charge less, and so. But they're just as good. They're smart, they know what they're doing, they fight, you know when they need it, need to, and so if you find someone like that and that's who you can afford, then you hire that person. You know so. And then there's other firms, for example, that just because they're more expensive or they have like a bigger firm, you know they're going to win Like it just doesn't work that way. You know the law is the law and so what you really need is someone that knows it and then can guide you through it or represent you. And you know you will prevail if you're on the right side of the law or you know your argument is correct. But so those are misconceptions. I think that I've heard happen a lot, and in family law I think it's difficult when people realize that it's hourly right. Hourly rates are really difficult for people to grasp, but you know most people do charge hourly. In family law. You know flat fee cases are reserved for like uncontested divorce, like if both parties want the divorce or you know, then it can be a flat fee because you know exactly what will happen. But when it's not, I mean you pay a deposit but then it could just keep going and so the more you call your attorney, the more it will cost. The more you call your attorney, the more it will cost. The more you email your attorney, the more it will cost, and so really you have to sort of.

Speaker 1: 17:33

You know I try to tell people where they are with their retainer every week, every week, because I don't ever want them to be shocked and surprised, like after three months, like, oh my gosh, like what happened, you know. No, I, I really I'm even not front Like I'd rather scare people at the beginning and then have it be more positive for them to just like be shocked, you know. So, at the beginning I'm just like this is the deposit and this is the range of what I think will happen. But, like you never know, like I just don't want, I'd rather than like take two weeks to think about hiring than to, like, you know, rush Right, I've had, I've told people like you know what you don't sound sure. So why don't you just take a couple of weeks to think about it? Because I just don't want you to, like, you know, hire and then regret Like I'll just leave them alone because I just it's fine, yeah, um, you know, definitely, be sure for sure look at me yeah, anyways.

Speaker 2: 18:31

But no, you're absolutely right about that. People do need time and they need space. It's good to not be pushy, like, hey, go ahead, let's just do it, don't worry about it. It's just like, no, this is something that is really like a concern for you. Take like a week or two and then get back to me if you want. But I like your strategy of like letting them know like ahead of time, and then later they're like oh okay, that was not what I thought it was going to be based on what you said. So, okay, let's, let's go yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 18:57

I have them initial like every page. I explain what, what will happen. I draw it out like I'm a visual. So I love like showing them like you know on, like you know a timeline, like you're here and this is the three things that are happening and this is the end, and so I I show them even so that they are just a hundred percent like sure on what will happen.

Speaker 2: 19:21

And I love it and I can totally see the passion that you have with this, like the fact that you take your time and you're just like look, I'm a visual person too. Let's go ahead and draw a chart here, a timeline of where it's going to, what it's going to take and where you're going to be and where we think this is going to lead. So I think that's awesome and I can tell you definitely have passion. I know you said, like look for people who, like are they going to win the case? Are they going to fight for you? Yes, these are all things you should definitely look, but you should also, in my opinion, find someone who has compassion, passion and cares and like knows, knows, like what people are going through, like the struggles. So I think that's again, I'm just like so in awe because you're another Latina woman here and it's I don't see them often so when I do.

Speaker 2: 20:04

I'm just like see, we can do it y'all. It's rare, but it's awesome, so I'm just very happy that you're here today.

Speaker 1: 20:11

Oh, thank you, yeah, no, this is great, of course.

Speaker 2: 20:15

And now, how has the landscape of family law evolved in recent years, particularly concerning child custody and support issues?

Speaker 1: 20:28

custody and support issues. So I think that with custody issues in particular, I think I see men getting custody of children more often than not, because you know, for a long time I feel like you know, there was a stereotype right that mom was always best and it's not always that way, you know. I mean, women have every right to feel like they want to be the breadwinner and they want to be working and that's fine, and so or sometimes I see more so than not, equal parenting going on like 50-50. A lot of that is being awarded lately. Just 50-50. Like both parties are. Just, you know, both are employed, Both are career people, Both care and love their child. The child loves both of them, Both are career.

Speaker 1: 21:06

People Both care and love their child. The child loves both of them, so there's no reason why both of them can't share. So I see that changing. Also, with child support, the guidelines changed so that now child support that one pays may be higher than in the past, but of course that makes sense. I mean, the cost of everything is a lot more and I've never heard anybody who's paying say I'm not paying enough, right, or someone that's receiving say that's just right.

Speaker 1: 21:35

You know like there's always that like that's not enough, you know, or that's too much and you know it's. You know the thing with child support is that you know most of of the time it is what it is. There's really very little you can say to someone who's a W-2 employee. It's like I'm sorry, but that's your gross income. I know that's not really what your take-home is and I know your rent is like $5,000 a month, but it doesn't matter. And so that is, you know, a tough issue to like talk to someone about, because it always does when my client is the payor. It always does feel to them like it's too much. You know, but but that's how it's changed. I think it's increased more for you know someone that is paying overall and with custody, though it has benefited. I'd say both parents. Good parents, right? Because if you're a fit parent, it should not matter if you're a male, female, whatever. If you're fit, you're fit Exactly, period.

Speaker 2: 22:37

Yeah, Love it. And then let's see how can attorneys balance empathy with professionalism when handling emotionally so?

Speaker 1: 22:47

I would say that you know, staying calm, right, staying calm, not becoming your client is helpful, right, because I know that sometimes clients want you to get angry, want you to get like, but that's, you know, it's your mind is not clear when you're angry.

Speaker 1: 23:06

Your mind is not like thinking when you're like in this zone. So I think that letting the client know like you feel them, you understand it, it's justified, it's appropriate, but at the same time, like there are ways to go forward from that and that there are things they're not seeing. Because as soon as I don't you know I'm not a psychologist but as soon as you become angry and upset, you're perception is limited. So like I'm here as your attorney, as someone over here outside of that, and I can tell you what you're not seeing, and so just giving them a little more perspective, so like hearing them, understanding them, letting them know it's okay and that's what happens, right, this is suffering, like happening to you right now and it happens to so many people, but trust me when I tell you that this is just temporary, because I've taken people from here to over there and everyone that's over there is telling me thank you so much. I was such a jerk.

Speaker 2: 24:07

I'm sorry, I yelled at you thank God, you're the voice of reason yeah, like I still have people like contacting me from years later.

Speaker 1: 24:15

Just like every time I talk to them they're apologizing. They're like why did I act like that? Thank you, yeah, Yelling at my staff. I mean, I mean, obviously I put a stop to that. I was like you know please do not ever do that again. You know, but at the same time, like we understand, like emotions are, just like you know, out there. So I think understanding, but also like pulling them in and reeling them in and like letting them know, like what they're not seeing, can be helpful.

Speaker 2: 24:45

Yeah, absolutely no, I love it and I love that you are the voice of reason because, like you said, when we're in that moment, forget it, like there's no reasoning with us. So you have to be that person. You cannot let their perspective get to you and you stoop there and then later, like you said, they will be like oh my gosh, that was so embarrassing, why did I do that? You were right. This is why I hired you. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 25:07

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I remember a few cases where a client insisted on speaking and I was just like reading the vibe, reading the judge. I was like no, they're attacking your spouse right now. This judge, the less you say the better, let's just watch. But no, he insisted on talking and so he talked and he ruined it. Then he became a target. So later, after that, he's like you were right, you were right. I was like sometimes it's not just about what you say is what you don't say. And so like you have to constantly be reading the room and knowing should I, shouldn't I right? Because I was like if you were being attacked by that judge, you bet I would have spoken up and I would have fought for you. But you weren't even under attack, like you could have just chilled with me Like I told you.

Speaker 2: 25:54

but I mean, you found out, you learned, so we ready to do this.

Speaker 1: 25:57

Yeah right, Exactly yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:59

Yeah, love it. Thanks for sharing that. And then, what do you like to do in your free time, when you're not out there fighting these cases, helping people? What eases your mind? What helps you de-stress?

Speaker 1: 26:12

So a lot of things. Like I have three kids, so spending time with them is always like de-stresses me. So talking to them, they're all into sports, right. So watching them play sports is a movie, right. Obviously, when you're watching you're not thinking about anything else. Going out with friends right, that's so important. We get so busy and I know it's like career and clients and kids and family, but like having friends to make the time. Like I have a set group of ladies that we like go out. We make it a point at least once a month, if not once every two, yeah, to just sit down and just talk about, like, what's going on. So that is also really helpful. You know I try to exercise, go for walks or like listen. I listen to podcasts too and read, you know. So all those things kind of like help me just not think anything that takes my mind off of thinking about a case or work. You know where I need to be engaged then that is helpful to me.

Speaker 2: 27:30

I'm so happy to hear that you've got a set of girlfriends that you can go to and hang out, because that is so important to not lose your sense of self too, because you want to have like that's great that you're a mom and everything, but sometimes you lose your identity of yourself. So the fact that you have those girls you can go to and also be with your family and finding that balance with your career, I love that for you. I do that's wonderful.

Speaker 1: 27:50

No, it's important, yeah, and it's hard because, I mean, for a long time I think we lost touch and we didn't make that time because they're busy, I'm busy, most of them are attorneys, so you know, I mean there's, there's, it's hard to like pick a time and pick a day, but, like you know, sometimes they'll pick up the phone and suggest, hey, let's go to this event. Or I'll pick up and say, hey, let's you know we haven't talked to you for like too long. Let, hey, let's you know we haven't talked to you for like too long, let's go out, you know. So that is also and not they're not all attorneys, some are not, but there's always something to talk about. Just because you know it's not just about the law.

Speaker 2: 28:25

Yeah, no, exactly, and you guys meet each other, you guys get each other what it's like in that industry. You can understand. Like when you're explaining something it's sometimes easier because it's like you know how it goes with this. They're like I know girl, and sometimes, if it's not, it's like never mind, it's okay.

Speaker 1: 28:38

Yeah, and you don't feel alone in your struggle because you know none of that, none of this is easy.

Speaker 1: 28:45

None of that is like. You know it's got its difficult moments and times and if someone is like, oh yeah, I had a bad decision from that judge too, that was awful, then you feel like less bad because you're like okay, you know it happened to them too, like it wasn't me, it wasn't me who did horribly, and you know, and the client's not mad either. Sometimes you know, like when there's a bad result, um, the client's not mad, and then you're like hearing from other people that it was bad, and then you know it's like ah, you know it's just like not good, but you know, I mean, there's certain things you can't control. Like that's really one of the things that I keep telling my clients too is like there's only certain things you can control, like you know the rest you just decide how you're going to react to it. You know, and just keep pushing, keep moving, keep. You know, don't just like get like frozen and like do nothing, because that's like the worst thing you can do.

Speaker 2: 29:42

That's the worst, for sure. I love it. You're such a cheerleader for them.

Speaker 1: 29:45

I love that, thank you.

Speaker 2: 29:46

And now, is there anything that I have not touched on in regards to yourself, your business, your industry, your career, that you would like to perhaps share? Maybe anything else, that's in another topic. You have the floor and opportunity to share that.

Speaker 1: 30:00

Yeah. So I mean I would just say that, like thinking back on how I got started, you know, in 2010,. I didn't really know how, I didn't really know when, I didn't know so many things about starting your own firm or starting your own business. But I think it's important to just get started Right. Don't even think about the plan. Like you do have to plan to some extent, but there are so many details you just can't, and so you just have to go for it, and so that's been like kind of my motto all the time. It's just like even when I was little, like I mean, I there's certain things that you can't do, but there's certain things you can, so go for the ones you can do something about and then just keep going in that direction.

Speaker 1: 30:44

So I recall, like when I was younger, I used to tell my mom like I'm going to college, and then she'd be like in her mind she tells me now. She'd be like you can't afford that, like I'm sorry, but you're not. But she never said that to me, so that I just said I'm going to college. And so then there was a man that spoke at a high school, and that's why I believe in giving back because I remember this man in his free time came to my high school and was like this is how you can go to college if you can't afford, like this, thousands of dollars, tuition, legal aid and forms. And then, like I, was like, eyes open and my mom's eyes open and she's like, oh, I guess you were right, you can go to college.

Speaker 2: 31:21

I was like there you go mom, you know.

Speaker 1: 31:23

And then it was like before that, even in high school, I'd be like, mom, I'm playing soccer. And she'd be like, well, I can't get you there to practice. And I'd be like, okay, well, I'm taking the bus there, taking the bus to practice every day.

Speaker 2: 31:35

There's a will, there's a way you make it happen for yourself.

Speaker 1: 31:39

Yes, so, just like I went to practice and you know, sometimes I would get a ride back home, sometimes I wouldn't, but I mean it would just be the bus, you know, like the regular Metro bus. And I remember the guy who'd be like you know, I know you're going to practice, you know. So I mean it's just, and then even when you get started, you don't have the you know the money, you're not making it yet. So then you're like, okay, what's available to me right now that I can utilize? And it was like interns coming from everywhere wanting to work for a lawyer. You know it's like, oh yeah, come on in you. You know. So they helped me because they wanted the experience and I needed their help. So it was like a win-win. And so then that intern became a full-time intern. Then it was like of the first assistant.

Speaker 1: 32:26

So it's just about, like you know, like looking around and seeing, like, okay, like this is what I want, but like what do I have available to get it going? And so just keep pushing really is the thing that, you know, I think is the goal here, because, you know, one of my kids recently was like scared to go to a soccer game and I was like, what are you so afraid of? Like what is the worst that can happen, like literally what is the worst I could lose? And I was like, okay, it's okay, if you lose, you learn. You lose, you learn, you're going to learn something from that game and that is a win in other ways and so really don't be afraid, you know, to fail or fall or anything. That's really what it's been for me anyway.

Speaker 2: 33:12

Just go for it. Yeah no, that's so beautiful, it's so true, like the worst thing you can do is not fail and learn, or that you didn't even try, you didn't even get to fail or win because you just didn't even do anything.

Speaker 1: 33:22

Right yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:23

Yeah, that's some great piece of advice, Thank you. My last question is and I'm sure you're probably going to have a good one I hope I think you will. My last question is do you have a quote, a saying or a mantra, Maybe something? Maybe your mom, Maybe a client, Maybe somebody told you something that resonated and you're just like huh interesting. I'm going to save this one. This was inspiring. Maybe you read a book. What is that message?

Speaker 1: 33:49

Well, I mean, I am not, you know, I'm not a Buddhist or anything, but I know that you know suffering is part of life, you know. So you know, I think that that has really helped because some people believe that, you know, life should be easy and like, like you should just be happy all the time, and it's just not that way. Like bad things happen every day. And so I think that, when it comes to life and was there some days that are overwhelming, and one thing, that constant that just helps me every single day is to think like, okay, like there's this, isn't this and this coming up and that I'm thinking is going to happen in the future.

Speaker 1: 34:31

But like, what's going to help me get through today? Like, am I going to be okay today? Because if the answer is yes to that, then I'm done, like, it's over. Yeah, like, and then tomorrow I didn't even think about how bad it was anymore, you know, yep, so that's that always happens to me. It's like, oh man, I've got this and I've got that. Okay, but like, for today, am I okay today? Like that's all I ask and then I'm good.

Speaker 2: 34:57

I love that no taking it day by day, because sometimes we're so wrapped up and like this happened to me in the past like I can't move on or oh my gosh, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this in the future and you're just so stuck, you're not doing anything in the present to like, push yourself forward from the past and the future, just go do it. So that's such a powerful message and thank you so much for coming here Again. I know it's snowing and everything but I appreciate your time and you coming here and sharing your story.

Speaker 1: 35:23

Thank you, I appreciate it. No, it was fun, it was nice. You know, first time I've done this and it was a good experience. Good, I love to hear that. Thank you again.