Speaker 1: 0:31

I am Caitlin Morris and I teach blacksmithing at Miss Caitlin's School of Blacksmithing. I teach full time and I offer blacksmithing classes for beginners, intermediate and advanced students.

Speaker 2: 0:45

That is insane. I love that. I want to get into the nitty gritty part of it. Can you tell me what all the classes entail? Like do you learn from like the beginning of how? Like 101,? Literally, I want to know everything that you're able to learn. Are there any age ranges? Like tell me it all.

Speaker 1: 1:05

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so let me address the age range thing first, because what we are dealing with here legitimately is unbelievably dangerous stuff. Right, we're working with absolutely incredible temperatures here, and so I don't teach hot metal to folks under age 13, unless they've gone through my entire program of cold metal and clay work beforehand, just to make sure that they kind of know what they're doing. But I will teach hot metal to anyone 13 and older with no upper age limit. Right, age is kind of an interesting indicator of someone's development, for, especially for young people, the different skills that make them ready to do blacksmithing are varied, and so someone at 13 might be totally ready to get into blacksmithing, and then somebody at 35 might really struggle with some of the basics that somebody at 13 would have well in hand.

Speaker 2: 2:13

Yeah, oh, my goodness, is there any like prerequisites, like besides age or anything Like? Can't be scared of this, or?

Speaker 1: 2:21

like no, I try to make my classes really inclusive, because when I got started blacksmithing, I had really no context for it. I got my start in 2009, and when I showed up to my very first class I want you to understand I showed up in four inch heels. So, like I, I really had no context for what I was getting into. I was the only woman, I was the shortest and smallest person by far, and I really struggled with blacksmithing, and so when I teach my blacksmithing here, I really want to reach the folks who have no context for blacksmithing, who have no background in this and who really don't imagine that they could do this. I want to make sure that they are also well supported in taking these classes?

Speaker 2: 3:14

Absolutely yeah, no. And speaking of background, I'd like to know your background and how you got started, like you showed up in four inch heels, like. Tell me the story about that and what got you interested in this or made you curious to want to pursue it.

Speaker 1: 3:26

Yeah. So I was at the time. I was the director of operations for a small business and I loved my job and I also sort of realized that I was devoting huge amounts of my life to my job and I was like I think I might need a hobby Hobbies are really great things to have, right. So I wrote down all the things that I was interested in doing, and I happened to be doing this on my lunch break and I happened to be doing this in Microsoft Excel, which has a little option up at the top where you can click to alphabetize a list Wow. So I wrote down all the things I wanted to learn to do alphabetize the list, because that's the sort of person I am and blacksmithing snapped up to the top of the list. And so I was like, well, I'm pretty sure that there's only one or two people still doing blacksmithing these days. So I did a Google search like blacksmithing classes near me and I ended up finding a place down in North Carolina where I could blacksmith for a week's class, and it was the John C Campbell Folk School and it was for me an 11-hour drive and a full week's vacation. And I was like this is completely nuts. Um, how can I take a week's vacation to go learn blacksmithing, of all things, Right? And so I sort of had this like moment of like reality check and, um, I sort of shut my computer down and went out into the hall and I was going to go have lunch. And as I got out into the hall I was like, oh hey, if I want to live a life of adventure, I have to actually go on adventures, Right. And so I went back in, signed up for the class. I was lucky enough to be able to tell my boss that I was taking a week's vacation, and then I actually just went and showed up there, and so much of what happened in the days between when I signed up and when I showed up for that first class were so interesting because I told everybody really excitedly I'm going to go take a blacksmithing class.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Were they just like girl? Yeah, they were asking me, like, are you going to be able to do this? Right? Like you know, I was wearing high heels every day. I was, you know, dressing all business attire. Um, there was no part of me that looked like I belonged in a blacksmithing shop, yeah. And so, you know, after a little while I it, those questions really started to get to me.

Speaker 1: 5:56

After a little while I it, those questions really started to get to me Like, am I actually going to be able to do this? And then the answer, of course, that came to me was well, even if I'm not good at it, it's okay. Like I, I can enjoy the process, Right. And so I went and I had a ton of fun, and also I really struggled to move the metal. I fell in love with the craft, but I wasn't really getting the metal to do the things that I wanted it to do, and so that was. That was the place that I started from loving something, not feeling like I totally fit in and also, um, that I wasn't. I wasn't able to do it the way that I wanted to. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 6:38

And, um, I'd like to know your perspective on how it's been being a female, um, or woman, in this industry of blacksmithing, because when you think of a blacksmith, you think of like a really strong bearded guy and all that good stuff. So tell me what your perspective and experience has been like as a woman.

Speaker 1: 6:59

It's been so interesting. Really, when I got into doing blacksmithing, there was no part of me that was like, oh, women can't do this. And then I got into it and I started thinking, oh, maybe, maybe there's something to this. And part of what was happening for me is that I was, um, like I was a rarity in in my class in blacksmithing in general. Um and so over the course of many years I would say that it's been a net positive for me that I've been kind of a rarity in the industry. Folks want to take classes from me because I am a woman. And also there's been some very real struggles. For example, a lot of my teachers really didn't know how to teach me because I wasn't moving the metal as efficiently as they were.

Speaker 1: 7:58

And what's been so interesting is that you know, as I've been coming to understand how to move the metal efficiently, I can understand how really foundational differences can show up as big demographic changes.

Speaker 1: 8:18

And here's what I'm talking about. In order to hit the metal hard, you have to either muscle the hammer down hard or you have to raise that hammer up a little higher. That ends up meaning that the folks that are a little bit stronger or a little bit taller tend to be a little bit better at blacksmithing to begin with, and that ends up meaning that, over time, the folks that are a little bit taller, a little bit stronger, are going to get more and more into blacksmithing, because they're going to be more successful to start with. And so, for me, what I started to notice is that the physics of blacksmithing tend to select for taller and stronger people, which tend to be men, and so we can use techniques to even it up and allow for more diversity, but and there's really quiet selection pressures that push the demographics in an interesting way, and that's been kind of the most exciting revelations of my experience. I love that.

Speaker 2: 9:28

I love that it's been a positive experience.

Speaker 1: 9:30

Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2: 9:31

Yeah, and now I'd like for you to show us some of the tools that your students and yourself will be using when you're doing what you do. Sure, I would love to see that Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 9:45

So I've brought a couple of hammers here, oh my goodness and a couple of tongs.

Speaker 2: 9:59

Wow, these are not the tongs that I am used to.

Speaker 1: 10:02

Yeah, oh my goodness, they're really big pieces of equipment, right, and so what's so interesting is that, because I got started in a craft school, there's a whole variety of different hammers that are available, but the tools are sized for the people that typically do blacksmithing, and so the hammers ended up being really heavy for me, and so I had to actually go and find a hammer that was an appropriate size for me when I got started. That I had to buy myself, just because the heavier hammers I just didn't have the strength to do that. Over time, of course, I've gotten stronger and stronger to be able to move them much more easily, and these are probably the three favorite hammers that I have. This one's been with me the longest, do you name?

Speaker 2: 10:57

them? You're like. No, Some people name their plants as if something.

Speaker 1: 11:00

Let me see if she's got names their plans, and so I was like, let me see if she's got names. Yeah, no, I don't have names for them. But, excuse me, I don't have names for them. But, um, it's. I definitely do have an emotional connection to my tools, which is kind of neat, Um, and it's been kind of interesting to see because as I've grown, I've started to see why people have such a very strong connection with their tools and you know, you learn the nuances of what each tool will do for you differently?

Speaker 2: 11:38

Yeah, absolutely. And now, seeing these tools, do you, did you make these yourself or did you buy? I did not.

Speaker 1: 11:45

Yeah, so there's what's so interesting in blacksmithing is that blacksmiths can make their tools. Yes, right, and that's so wonderful, and it allows folks to have a lot of nuance in terms of, like, really making sure that their tool matches exactly what they want to do. Yes, and the flip side to that is that there's a lot of gatekeeping there. It's like I've actually been told to my face you know, you're not a blacksmith unless you make your own tools. Okay, right, and. And what's so interesting about that is that, yeah, I could get into making each and every one of my individual tools, and also, so much of what I bring to the industry is not tool making but making other blacksmiths. Yes, the bar. Make sure that folks know that it's totally okay to go out and support your local hammer maker or tongue maker and buy their tools to just get started and then go from there.

Speaker 2: 12:48

Absolutely, and I can see why you would be someone that you would want to go and learn from, because you make it not so intimidating Like I don't know if you'll be able to do it, because you seem weak or you're a kid, you know, I don't know, you're just like you know what. It's fine, we can make it work and we'll find a way to do it because you are able to do it. You just need to have the right resources and tools with you. So let's come on. So I love, I love that type of environment that you already are just giving to me and you're just like not being a gatekeeper and all that good stuff.

Speaker 2: 13:17

So now I do have a question about the tools for the kiddos.

Speaker 1: 13:20

Do you think it?

Speaker 2: 13:21

like little ones or like how would that work? Yeah?

Speaker 1: 13:23

it really depends upon their strength and what age they're coming at for Um, so I have a entirely cold metal, cold metal and clay. We actually work with modeling clay to to really see how the material will move, and I've had really bitty kids for this, like I've had I think they were almost five, sorry, almost six when they started really really bitty, I mean so so tiny that I had to almost put the anvil on the floor to be able to, yeah, and so in those cases of course, I get some special hammers that that really do work for their bodies, and that's an interesting challenge, because hammers really these days are not designed for children.

Speaker 2: 14:09

No, no, but like cool, cool. Okay, I love that. And what do each of these tools do? If you don't mind showing and explaining that, I mean, these are very, very basic hammers.

Speaker 1: 14:22

Um, they are sort of the? Um multi-use tool for us. Um, they're just different weights and they have different hammer lengths so that, depending upon what day, what type of thing I'm doing, I might grab one versus another. Um, for even me, even though I'm blacksmithing all the time, um, there are some days that I feel stronger than others, and so I might choose a lighter hammer, um, on the days that I feel a little bit weaker, or I might choose a heavier hammer on the days that I really want to put some power into it.

Speaker 1: 14:55

Okay, um, and these tongs are all just designed for different sizes and shapes of metal. I think one of the more interesting ones here is this gooseneck tongs, so that you can hold a piece of metal that actually goes longer back here. For the ones that are sort of a little bit more standard, your piece of metal could only go as far as this boss area here, so this kind of allows it to be gripped in the middle. And you know, we've got some tongs here that are designed for holding like flat bar and whatever.

Speaker 2: 15:34

Okay, so thank you so much for showing me the tools that you work with and how intimate you are with making your work and sharing that with your students.

Speaker 2: 15:42

I think that is brilliant and amazing. I want to talk a little bit about marketing, like are you recording your students making things? Are you making things putting it online? How are you getting your name out there, what you do your business, what blacksmithing stands for and is and how it's still going on and it's such an old um skill, but it's still definitely needed in today's society in order for things that we don't think about often to work and have in our everyday things.

Speaker 1: 16:12

Oh, absolutely, um, marketing is a really interesting thing these days. Um I, uh interesting thing these days Um I, uh. I have been using social media since I got started, um, and I love the you? Um, I love the way that social media can allow us to really connect with people in a? Um, a very authentic way.

Speaker 1: 16:36

And also I recognize that as I'm teaching my students, there's a certain level of a? Um awareness that bringing cameras into that situation is a little bit challenging and that's actually caused a little bit of? Um of difficulty, because I don't have a lot of footage then of my students actually during the learning process. Um, so this we actually have our very first class, that is, you know, the students have been informed ahead of time that there's going to be folks taking video that day so that we can actually walk through that process but also still give the students the time and attention, the time and attention. One of the interesting things about these days is that you know, when folks always have a camera in their face, when they're always on, it's a little bit harder to get into that space of true learning where you're sort of opening yourself up to brand new things and having to react to what's in front of you.

Speaker 2: 17:59

Yeah, no, absolutely. And um, have you thought maybe about getting a tripod, maybe, and then setting your phone on there?

Speaker 1: 18:14

maybe Absolutely, and and there are, um, like I have done that a one of the places where I haven't quite fully gotten myself into, totally comfortable with expecting that of my students.

Speaker 1: 18:34

Right, because so much of what I'm there for is to get them experiencing something that is totally outside of their comfort zone. Right, um, a lot of the times, and and this, this is like this gets into some of the most exciting stuff for me Um, truly, what I'm doing here is empowering folks to see that they can also do this, and that process is incredibly complex because you're running into a lot of the ways that we unconsciously shape ourselves into smaller and smaller spaces. Right, one of the things in order to actually be able to move that metal effectively, you have to learn to hold your hammer relatively loosely and drop it, and a lot of folks, myself included, have been raised to not let things fall. Yes, and letting things fall seems like they're letting it out of control, and that ends up being a thing that folks have a lot of resistance to. Yes, right, and it's like it's the easiest thing on earth Just let it fall, and they can't do it.

Speaker 2: 19:48

Right, especially like a hammer or something like oh my gosh, no my toe.

Speaker 1: 19:52

Exactly, it feels so dangerous. And you pair that with holding a piece of metal, that's a thousand degrees, oh boy, right, oh boy, it feels terrifying. And when you're sitting there in a situation where you've got somebody who is truly encountering some fear in a very real, controlled way, right, um it, it, it is a um. It's a space that I have a lot of respect for, yes, and so I haven't quite figured out, truthfully, how to get access to that space in a way that also makes the student feel really safe to have their authentic experience.

Speaker 2: 20:35

Absolutely no, yeah, and that makes total sense. It's different for everybody and the industry, so I just like to hear what all entrepreneurs do. But you're absolutely right about that. It's such a like. You need to be totally focused on this.

Speaker 2: 20:49

Yeah, and it's, it's, it's a space that I'm I'm very much still navigating, yeah no, and that's part of the journey is learning, especially as an entrepreneur, business owner, getting to know, like, what works, what does it, what can you change up? So thank you for sharing that experience. I appreciate it. Um, where do you see yourself in the next five years with your business or as a person?

Speaker 1: 21:13

So for me personally, so much of what I've been doing in the last eight years or so has been really developing my curriculum. Yes, and now I'm at a place where I feel like I have a pretty good ability to take pretty much anybody who enters my shop and get them blacksmithing with excellent techniques as quickly as possible, and so what I'm starting to do right now is pivot towards teaching teachers. Yes, I've always had this dream of creating a craft college, because when you think about things like you know MIT right Massachusetts Institute of Technology, things like you know MIT right Massachusetts Institute of Technology, technology we see technology as sort of a user agnostic thing, right, or a maker agnostic thing. It doesn't matter who made your technology, it doesn't matter who uses it. It all should be pretty similar, right.

Speaker 1: 22:08

But in craft we can't divorce the person who made the craft from the object itself, and what's so interesting about blacksmithing is that we've really got the intersection of this craft with the human being who actually made it, and this is one of the things that's so special and so incredible about craft is that it really is deeply connected to the human body. It really is deeply connected to the human body, and so so much of what I'm interested in is teaching my techniques to others, doing research in terms of the actual kinesiology of what makes that hammer do its thing, getting science behind the techniques do its thing, getting science behind the techniques, getting a better understanding of how we can be more sustainable within the craft, doing that sort of research, and so that's sort of the direction that I'm heading in is to teach the next generation.

Speaker 2: 23:07

Very cool. I love that. I'm excited bringing these skills that could be long lost or forgotten, but I don't think it will, cause I think it's so important. So I think it's great that you're also inspiring a new generation to to be curious about it. So that's cool. I appreciate that, um is there anything that maybe I have not touched on, that you would like to share, either about yourself or your business, anything want to make sure, while I have you here, we highlight all those key. Thank you, Thank you.

Speaker 2: 23:32

Um, that's a really great question, Uh like maybe any events coming up or a book in the works.

Speaker 1: 23:41

Well, there, there's always a book in the works, but who knows how long it's going to be for for that to come out. So much of what I've been, um, really trying to do is to capture the information that I have to share with people, because folks come in and take my classes and, um, I'm really tailoring what I'm telling them to what they actually need in the moment, and so, you know, any given person receives, you know, five to 10% of what's available out there. So, um, there's there's always a push towards capturing as much of that content in a shareable form as possible. I don't know if it'll end up being a book or online courses or whatnot, but it's uh, stay tuned, I guess, Okay.

Speaker 2: 24:27

Yeah, stay tuned. Love it, um. All right. So my last question is going to be tuned Love it, um, all right. So my last question is going to be um, do you have a saying or a mantra that you like to live your life by that you use, maybe, as inspiration, and if you could share that with our listeners, they can use that as inspiration?

Speaker 1: 24:44

That's a really great question. Um, I would have to say probably, um, that thing that made me turn around in the hall and go back in and sign up for my first blacksmithing class. You have to actually go on adventures in order to live a life of adventure and really just taking that step out and doing something that is really outside the norm. I really think that that has helped me to create a life that I love. I love it. And where can people find you? Uh, miss Caitlin schoolcom. That's M S C A I T L I N S S C H O O Lcom.

Speaker 2: 25:24

Perfect, beautiful. Thank you so much for being here Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. Absolutely, it was a pleasure.