Speaker 1: 0:31

It's hard economy was really good for a while and a lot of people got into our industry and First of all, what's your industry? Oh sorry, good point. So we're in construction as a whole. It's kind of a overarching, but we're a specialty contractor so we really just do excavating, grading, underground utilities, demolition, anything weird like right now we're getting there's a steel dome. It's on top of a Hindu temple in Fairfax. We're in the process of taking just the steel dome off the temple.

Speaker 2: 1:02

Why.

Speaker 1: 1:04

Renovation yeah, they want to redo the. They want to redo it yeah, it's. But again, weird stuff like that is what we're kind of known for.

Speaker 2: 1:12

Most people can't really like get to you're, like, you're the guy, but I got a guy for that.

Speaker 1: 1:17

Right, yeah, so we try to be. We try to be the solutions-based company for our industry. Yeah, kind of weird stuff, because Everybody out there can especially when economy was good, they could take out a loan and buy a skid steer and a pickup truck with a trailer and next thing you know they're out advertising that they are a Excavating company. Right, yeah, that's fine. Power to them. Everybody starts. Most people start small, but A lot of problems we run into with them undercutting. There's a lot of undercutting that happens. Yeah, and I think the biggest thing that we've been trying to push for the last couple years, especially since COVID, was Make sure everybody's properly licensed. I tell homeowners that all the time because I work with a network of subcontractors and I recommend them to homeowner friends or no, really anybody, people that I trust to do the work. Yeah, and that's our big thing is check the D4 website that they're properly licensed and check their insurance certificate to make sure that they're insured.

Speaker 2: 2:15

It's like the first step before you consider anybody.

Speaker 1: 2:18

Yeah cuz everybody watches Magnolia farm or whatever it is, chip and what's her name. Yeah, like I'm gonna do all this stuff to my house. And then they start with these great ideas and they get out there and they realize, whoa, you know, everything's ridiculously expensive, but more so in our field now, because we watched our material cost skyrocket and they never came back down. Yeah, and we, we don't exactly work with people that are used to having those cost increases passed on to them, and so that a lot of contractors are feeling Small margins go even smaller.

Speaker 1: 2:55

You know, most people the, I guess when we were growing up like it was like oh, your Mom or dad has a construction company or contracting business. You guys are, you guys are rich, right, yeah, and I hear it all the time. Now he go must be nice. Okay, what, what must be nice? The 18 hours a day of work, the constant stress, the waking up in the middle of the night wondering oh Crap, I put my phone. I gotta write a note down cuz I just remembered something I have to do in the morning.

Speaker 2: 3:23

So that's when you start screaming hey Siri, right.

Speaker 1: 3:27

Yeah, it's so. It's challenging and you know the pros Like anything in life, the pros need to outweigh the cons of most of things that you do. And so for me, being able to spend as much time with my kids Coach you know, I coach Little baseball right here in Leesburg and I'm on the board with Central out little league. My wife and I both are and it gives me schedule freedom because I can not do something in the afternoon Go hang out with my children and then, when they're good, when they go to bed, I can pull my laptop back out at home and keep working on it.

Speaker 2: 4:04

You have a discipline that I do that.

Speaker 1: 4:06

You do, you do, but when you're, when you're the owner, there is no choice. Like it's, either you got to get it done or Doesn't happen.

Speaker 2: 4:15

And you have a team.

Speaker 1: 4:16

I do. Yep, we've cultivated a really good core group of people and, yeah, would not be where we are without them. But again, going back to the big C, it was very hard and now we've seen this interesting shift in the industry where more and more folks that, well, hey, you know what? I'm really good at Running this piece of equipment, so I'm gonna step out and start my own company. Money was cheap to borrow. People don't realize that those monthly payments come no matter what, whether you have jobs or not. So a lot of these folks got these I I Enjoy their entrepreneurial spirit. I'm wanting to start their own thing. The problem is, if you don't have, if you don't fully understand the grind and the consistency of what it takes to bring business into your business, you're eventually gonna fall short and then you're gonna want to sell your equipment and go back to work for somebody else and, believe it or not, we've been seeing that a lot.

Speaker 2: 5:15

Yeah, I have to, just as a photographer.

Speaker 1: 5:17

Yeah, because everybody thinks they're photographer, right? Well, I'm a great photographer with my phone.

Speaker 2: 5:22

Okay, cameras. How many are there on the backside there?

Speaker 1: 5:25

That's five lenses and a flash. Wow, I'm really good with this thing, but I'm nowhere near what you like. Your head shot of me is great.

Speaker 2: 5:34

Was that? When we take that? That was when I was loud and 40 under 40, but I mean, what we hear is that oh God, I don't know, five years ago, maybe it's probably, maybe it was 2019.

Speaker 1: 5:45

It had to have been right, Cause it was before COVID.

Speaker 2: 5:47

Yeah, I don't even oh my.

Speaker 1: 5:48

God, it's so long ago. It's so long ago. It's so long ago. Yeah, to your point. Everybody has a phone. I take great pictures with my phone, but I'm not a professional level and there's people like you and your team and thousands of freelance photographers out there that have spent years crafting and perfecting their skill set and it's. I would be doing them a disservice if I'm like I could do that. I'm gonna go spend $1,000 on a camera and a lens and I'm gonna call myself a photographer and then I'm gonna run around and undercut people.

Speaker 2: 6:21

But people do it all the time.

Speaker 2: 6:23

Where they drop out, though, is similar to what you said, where it's like it's not about having a nice camera, getting the equipment. It's really not even about being able to take a decent picture, because now, with technology, a lot of people can take a decent picture. Not amazing, but a decent picture. It's about do you know how to properly run a business, bring in clients and keep your clients coming back again and again? Yeah, because if that's not there, as you know, if you don't build those solid relationships, and, as you know, it takes time, years, to gain people's trust.

Speaker 1: 6:59

So I don't need a headshot every six months, I don't need it every year. I'm still rocking the one that you gave me. I don't think you're doing it. No, I don't look the same anymore. No, you're the same A little furrier, a little wider, but you know.

Speaker 2: 7:10

Still rocking the same.

Speaker 1: 7:12

But somebody was looking for professional headshots on one of my networking groups a few months ago and I told him to come here. I said, well, the only place I have any experience with is your studio and I wouldn't have known that had I not interacted with you five years ago. But that kind of lead doesn't come along unless you're still in business, if you're still staying in the community and staying active in networks. So yeah, I totally feel you. And then on our end, equipment costs are. When I tell you they're outrageous, they're a little different.

Speaker 2: 7:45

No, I know.

Speaker 1: 7:46

Yeah, to the point where, between my CFO and myself and some trusted colleagues and talking to businesses similar to mine around the nation, we kind of revamped our business model to try to focus more on profitability and that's the only thing we care about Quality of work, safety and profitability for the company. Yeah, because it got to be. I mean, it got to be outrageously expensive to own your own equipment to the extent that you need to be, because you can do it and stay small and I would still consider myself pretty small. But when you look at small, small businesses, we're considered medium. They look at us and go wow, you've got a team of eight to 10 people.

Speaker 2: 8:28

No, they're so big.

Speaker 1: 8:29

You've got crews, you've got a fleet of vehicles, you're huge. No, then you look at some of the folks that are doing the data center site developments. I mean, some of those companies had to be so big they had to bring on private investors and a board of directors just to be bondable enough to get those large projects. And that's something that I don't think happens in our country anymore. You can't just get really good at building things and then want to grow without hitting some of the financial requirements that are put in place. And people say it's for safety. Contractors always get blamed for being shitty people Everybody's always whining about. Well, we had a contractor rip us off. Well, that goes back to did you do your due diligence? Did you check their licensing and insurance requirements, that sort of thing. But on the flip side, you also have contractors that do good work and want to continue to grow, and then they hit this wall where, if you're not bondable, higher than whatever, you just don't get the contract.

Speaker 2: 9:37

What do you mean by you're not bondable?

Speaker 1: 9:38

So that's a great question. This is what I try to educate people on. We have a potential contract right now for a substantial amount of money in a local school district not in Loudoun but nearby and we competitively bid. We were about 8% less than our competition, I think. On this bid We've been working hand in hand with the general contractor that was awarded the contract. The only reason that we have not been awarded yet is because we're still working through the bonding situation, which means I have to personally guarantee everything. I have to show a certain amount of net worth and then they can come after and take my house if the project falls through. Yeah, so where's the incentive for me? Why would I want to put myself out there and why would I want to expose myself to those kinds of risks? And yes, I know businesses risk versus reward. But the pendulum has swung pretty far to one side now, to where it's difficult for small to medium sized businesses to want to do larger projects.

Speaker 2: 10:44

So this isn't like insurance, this is like what it is is a performance and payment bond.

Speaker 1: 10:52

So if you and I are doing a project, we're going to build this table together and you're like I'm a little worried that Corey's not going to build it to where I need it to be, or I'm worried they're going to get halfway through and quit, so then you would have what's called a performance bond. And then I'm worried like, oh man, I want to make sure that if, as we build this table together, we're getting paid on time and so that it's supposed to protect both parties. The problem is it really, and it costs money. It's anywhere from 3 to 4% of the total contract value. So if it's a $10 million contract, it's a significant amount of money for the bond, and you always hope the bond is never used. It's just there. It's like an insurance policy, but it's for performance.

Speaker 2: 11:35

So I pay for that. Me as the client, I pay for that bond.

Speaker 1: 11:38

So typically, yes, the owner of the project. By owner I mean whoever wants the project done, got it and then typically the way it works with us. We're a subcontractor for probably 80% of what we do and then we're a prime contractor, meaning we work directly for the owner and about 20% or 30% of our projects. But the majority of what we do we work for a builder or a general contractor in both the commercial and residential space, because we're involved in a couple custom housing projects out in Western Loudoun right now and there's federal government projects that we've been prime contractor on and a subcontractor. We're working right now up at Mount Weather for FEMA, but we're a subcontractor up there. So I told my dad the other day if I had known how much the actual business side of construction was really just construction law and contracts, I don't know if I would have gone this route.

Speaker 2: 12:40

What would you do instead?

Speaker 1: 12:43

I mean, I have my PMP. I probably would have gone to work for somebody else, you know, running projects for them, so I didn't have so much headache and I didn't have to worry about, you know, oh God, payroll and everything else that goes into. Oh, isn't it so much fun.

Speaker 2: 12:54

And it's such a bad dynamic because it's like your team is like, yay, it's time to get paid, and you're like, oh, it's time to get paid.

Speaker 1: 13:00

Yep, it's like every like tomorrow morning I've got a couple meetings and then my CFO will hit me up and say, hey, you ready for? Do you want me to cut payroll? And I'm like yeah go ahead. And I just, it's just, you know, it's definitely the largest, at least in my business, it's our largest. Yeah, it's ours too Fine item.

Speaker 1: 13:24

I think our equipment payments, you know, for rental equipment and everything that's probably it's between that and payroll, which is our largest. You know, I came from a landscaping background and payroll was always the highest thing there and I thought, eh, I got you, I'm going into construction. Less people, more productivity yeah, no, no, it's worse because the equipment is so much more expensive. So now equipment payments and payroll payments, you know all the time.

Speaker 2: 13:57

Yeah, what's some of your best, like most fun projects or unique projects.

Speaker 1: 14:03

Well, the dome is our most unique right now. That's pretty cool, tell me about it.

Speaker 1: 14:07

It's there's steel. It looks like this, like a steel dome that goes up around this circular Hindu temple and it's it's pretty tall, so we have to go in. We put our guys in lifts and they go in. And then the crane we got a hundred ton crane on site, so it's going to be over top. We just disassemble this thing like Legos and we're taking pieces apart, apart, and then we just take every other piece and we work our way all the way around until we just have the center cap done.

Speaker 2: 14:34

Can you do a time lapse video of that?

Speaker 1: 14:35

I am. I think you should.

Speaker 2: 14:36

I am Set up like your phone, do the time lapse.

Speaker 1: 14:39

Well, I have a special dedicated time lapse camera. Perfect, it's sitting on site and we're going to do a cool little, that's going to be fun to see. So that's fun but probably our most. I guess our most enjoyable would be we did a section eight housing neighborhood in Petersburg, virginia, interesting.

Speaker 2: 15:01

Why Anderson?

Speaker 1: 15:02

Very dynamic environment. That's very dangerous neighborhood. That was one of the worst ones in Petersburg for gun violence. But we, you know it's through barbecues for the neighborhood and we try to work around everybody as best we could. So that was my first involvement, first time dealing with local government, that's not from Northern Virginia and the ins and outs of how that goes. And then our other most rewarding project was we worked all along the Appalachian Trail in Virginia, from all the way down south, way down near Tennessee, to, I guess the closest would be right here near Front Royal, and we cleaned up all these old farmhouses, barns, shacks. Some of them were just junk, old shanties, but there were a couple homesteads from, you know, the 1800s that we tore down and who hired you for that one?

Speaker 1: 15:50

The National Park Service.

Speaker 2: 15:51

Okay, I was like who was in charge of all that?

Speaker 1: 15:53

So apparently they did it from Georgia to Maine the whole way they wanted to go. They called it non-historic, incidental structure removal because hikers were sleeping in them and it was a liability. So they wanted they hired a bunch of companies across the East Coast to go do the whole whole trail cleanup.

Speaker 2: 16:10

So they just, you just took them all down, yeah, but so Then we bailed them.

Speaker 1: 16:14

No, so we had to, but we had to think about it. You know, the trails is very skinny in some places and there are fire access or emergency access paths.

Speaker 2: 16:21

You're pulling your big hole?

Speaker 1: 16:23

Yes, and we had to be very careful, Like we had to be very sensitive about the disturbance to the actual trail itself. So it was ended up being less equipment and a lot more manpower. Like I was asking my buddies like hey, who wants to make some money today? I'll pay you cash. Throw in this hard hat, this reflective vest, here's some gloves and some safety glasses. We're going out in the woods and we we'd ride up the hill and then we'd get to the trail and we'd walk all the way out the trail and all the way down and because we had to clean it all out by hand, we had to rake it all up and then we had to re seed with a specific seed mix and straw it. Um actually went back and checked on one of the spots last year and it's re nature has reclaimed it.

Speaker 1: 17:07

You can't really tell. It's pretty cool.

Speaker 2: 17:09

It is really cool.

Speaker 1: 17:09

Yeah, now you see it Now you don't that's right and just clean that up real quick, kind of like what we do with our technology now.

Speaker 2: 17:17

Oh yeah, it's like.

Speaker 1: 17:17

Photoshop for real. We just delete those blemishes real quick and we're done.

Speaker 2: 17:22

Like it never even happened. Yeah, that's awesome. Um, now I had. I know you gave me a little bit, but like, how did you from a kid to today? Like, how did you get to where you are today?

Speaker 1: 17:33

Um, some fetching a ration from here Um, actually from Shantilly and, uh, my grandfather he was a Fairfax County police officer and he also had a little contracting company and you know my dad worked for him until my grandfather got sick. And then, um, my dad went after college. He worked for a couple of the companies and then, you know, he and his partner, doug, had JD lawn service. Doug still has the company. My dad's retired since but, um, I grew up working for him so, but I also grew up right down the road in Sterling in a Broadwain Farms. So when it snowed I went out and shoveled driveways with my friends and made some money. And then, when it the grass was growing, I went out and pushed my lawns and made some money, you know, and then we were playing sports and I just kind of stuck with it Both. Both grandparents had farms and I learned a lot through that.

Speaker 1: 18:21

And then after high school went to college and wasn't enjoying that, um, so I stayed kind of in the trades for quite a while and, uh, then went in the military, got out of the military after six years, came back here, went to work for dad again and then, thankfully, I was able to move from, you know, like general managing for them to no-transcript appear sales role, which anybody that listens or watches will understand. You don't know sales until you have to do sales, and then you realize how bad everybody is at sales. Until you do them, it's like a perishable skill, and so in order to do sales without coming off pushy or an asshole, you have to practice it. You have to be good at it.

Speaker 2: 19:05

What's good sales to you.

Speaker 1: 19:08

The corny shit. That's absolutely real. Making an established relationship with somebody, not just like here's some brochures by my stuff. You want to establish a relationship with somebody and the more you can get to know, I hate to. Oh, the office is awesome, the way Michael Scott makes that sale where they go to Chili's.

Speaker 2: 19:28

I've watched the Office, but oh, my God. Listen, it's been a while.

Speaker 1: 19:33

So basically his boss is there and she's being very pushy Just get this big contract. He's like, stop, let me do it my way. Walks him through the whole thing, takes him out to Chili's. They sing the baby back ribs song together. Next thing you know, at the end of the day he's like look, I know we're a little bit more expensive, but what you're getting out of that is the small town feel, the quality and the personal management of your account. And he closes the deal and I don't know if the producers knew what they were doing, but it's a fantastic example, like they should show it in business school.

Speaker 1: 20:06

Pusy boss which could be me sometimes, if it works tight, I'm like sure we got to go out and do something. Get these sales done. Who needs a discount? Let's get stuff rolling. Yeah, I think it's a fantastic example of what good salesmanship should look like. Salespeople are really good. Salespeople are typically in sales long after they could have retired because they enjoy it, they take care of their accounts and they keep making money. Half my equipment salesmen are probably in their 70s.

Speaker 2: 20:36

Yeah, they love what they do.

Speaker 1: 20:38

Well, I plan on doing that, not that.

Speaker 2: 20:39

that condition is good yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:41

And I plan on doing that when I'm, when my kids have graduated from Loudoun, and you know my wife and I are ready to move somewhere warmer. I'll just go work sales for somebody and you already have your retirement plan.

Speaker 2: 20:52

I do.

Speaker 1: 20:52

Perfect, yeah, cause. Well, let me ask you this Do you really think you could retire? Retire? Could you sit around and do nothing? No, me either. I have those desires to do that, you know I. Kevin Bennar's a friend and so does Curtis that owns, you know, delirium. I talked to them quite a bit Since I was 18, I've always wanted to open a bar. I want a little live music venue, you're going to do that on some like. I'm a music nerd and I like beer, so, yes, I want to do that somewhere warmer.

Speaker 2: 21:22

You're just, you are going to need to probably do the salesmen, though. It's in order to run that, because if you probably talk to Kevin, he'll be the first one to tell you he does it out of passion. Absolutely, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:36

I know the margins are just terrible there. Apparently, I'm a glutton for punishment because they're not great construction either. Having the know how and the skill set and the contacts to be able to do our stuff is definitely a big help. Yes, that's kind of like a future passion project between that and just selling for somebody.

Speaker 2: 21:54

Yeah, so it sounds like you like the sells.

Speaker 1: 21:57

Well, yeah, because I can do it on the golf course. Do you know how many deals I've closed on the golf course?

Speaker 2: 22:00

How many?

Speaker 1: 22:01

I'd say 60% of the time I go out. I close.

Speaker 2: 22:03

Can you write that?

Speaker 1: 22:04

off Always.

Speaker 2: 22:06

I was going to say I'm pretty sure, then you can write that off, you're doing business.

Speaker 1: 22:09

Yes, yeah, I have a fantastic CPA, Frank Stiley. He's awesome. We follow the law and I make sure, like there's things that you can and can't do, and I make sure that.

Speaker 2: 22:20

I was going to say there's about here to here. Some CPAs are over here on the like. I'm going to make you pay a heck of a lot more than you have to, because I don't want to even like risk and audit Risk and audit. And then there are CPAs that are like right here.

Speaker 1: 22:39

So what's interesting about Frank is he's been my only CPA since I've been in business since 2018. And he's a tax instructor.

Speaker 2: 22:47

Yeah, I know he's very knowledgeable. Two tax books.

Speaker 1: 22:49

He's such a nerd. I love it Like he's such an expert in his field, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:54

And he's so funny, he has such a good sense of humor.

Speaker 1: 22:55

He does.

Speaker 2: 22:56

I haven't actually met him face to face, but just his social media persona is funny.

Speaker 1: 23:01

Yeah, yeah, he's fantastic, and so he's the one that's open. He's like hey, here's what you can, here's what you can't do. He's like I'm not worried about getting sued because I've been doing this for 35 years and I'm not skirting the law. I'm doing what's written down, that's what we're going to do, that's why there's tax laws.

Speaker 1: 23:19

That's right, and so for me, if I can entertain clients and of course I get taken out to play golf by people that are trying to sell me business as well but if I can entertain people and golf is a fantastic thing because it's not a forced awkward situation that you can just get out of Like, oh crap, it's well, it's been nice, Good to see you. Thanks for the drinks. I'm out of here. No, no, no. You've got four hours with this person and you never talk business in the first nine. You wait till everybody has a few beers, you hit the turn, you get a good glizzy and a beer and then you hit the back nine and that's when you start talking business.

Speaker 1: 23:55

That's where, yeah, OK, well, I was going to say I don't even know how to put putz my jam and even that I haven't done for a while it's really awesome, it's a really fun activity that's a lot more inclusive than people think it is and it's not as difficult as people think it is, and it's really just about outside fresh air and doing an activity. And, let's be honest, you wouldn't be where you are right now if you weren't a competitive type of person I'm very competitive, see, and that's why the golf course is awesome.

Speaker 1: 24:26

There's guys that go out. They'll drop $100 a hole. Not me, I don't want to lose $100 a hole. But there's guys that go out and they gamble every hole and they add an additional layer of competition to the actual golf game.

Speaker 2: 24:39

See, I'm more of the. I'm going to come, not with you, but I'm going to compete with you. But you have no idea.

Speaker 1: 24:44

No right, You're just going to blindside somebody with all this. Pow Wow yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:51

I won't be like, yeah, I'm going to beat you. You know what I mean. It's not like that. I wouldn't be like OK, come on, let's go, let's go, let's go. It's kind of like a show off. I'm just going to be like I'm just quietly doing my thing and keeping you in the as I go by you.

Speaker 1: 25:05

That's right. Just wave as you go by, that's right.

Speaker 2: 25:08

What would you say, just kind of wrap it up here what would you say to your future potential clients?

Speaker 1: 25:19

Everybody needs way more patience. We don't have control over most of the industry permitting. You know Loudoun's on a new system now. That's months and months to get permits. So I think to future clients it's continue with your great ideas and keep having those dreams. Bake a little bit more patience in there and realistic expectations. I think the hardest thing about selling and project management in our industry is client expectation management. If somebody hires you for a wedding package and I may think I'm getting two videos and 1,000 photos, you're like well, no, that's not what the package entails. So there's a lot of parallels to everything in life. I don't go to McDonald's expecting a Michelin Star deal, so it's just managing client expectations and just encouraging people to do. Please, do a lot of your own research and take your time choosing a contractor and research the materials you're looking for. Really get involved with the process so that you are happy at the end.

Speaker 2: 26:22

And I'm going to add to this I could imagine if I was doing a project I wouldn't want to do all that research.

Speaker 1: 26:28

Sure, and that's where we step in right. That's where the salesperson or the estimator there's allowances here Again, friend of mine from Western Loudoun, their kitchen cabinets were a lot more money than he was expecting, for example they walk in, they're like, oh, wow, this is great. And my wife and I have done it too. We've walked into a place like, wow, we really like that. And they show us a price. We're like how?

Speaker 2: 26:52

much does that one over there. I feel like it was a nice cool.

Speaker 1: 26:55

Second one yeah, let's just back those expectations down a little bit more so we get it back to reality. So, yeah, I think that's the big thing is timeline and cost expectation management is huge in our industry and it's only gotten worse since the economy is where it is.

Speaker 2: 27:12

OK, awesome. Thank you so much for being on this show.

Speaker 1: 27:15

Yeah, thanks for having me, it's been great.