Speaker 1: 0:31

I'm Mike, I'm the M in MJ Design and Build.

Speaker 2: 0:34

And I am Jackie. I am Mike's wife and the J in MJ Design.

Speaker 3: 0:37

Okay, and can you tell me a little bit about your business? What do you guys do?

Speaker 1: 0:41

Yeah, so we are a residential and commercial design and build firm based out of Arlington, virginia. We've been in business for just in the MJ Design and Build for three years, but we've been working together married for 15. Okay, I guess since the beginning.

Speaker 2: 0:57

Yeah, so yeah, we focus mainly on, like Mike said, residential and commercial construction, redoing spaces, kitchens, bathrooms, basements, additions, both small and large scale, do it all.

Speaker 1: 1:14

But we started back actually. Well, I started when I was like, all right, illegally 10 years old, not the child's later, my dad had always been investing and he always had some projects. So when he was working on him he had me and my brother always kind of in tow just helping out and we I mean into this day we drive around and I'm like, oh, that's the dog pee house. So all these, all these, I would say, distressed properties, but nevertheless we I've always been kind of a hands on in the construction and real estate industry and one thing that was always kind of being from the area, one thing that we've been seeing over the last decade, if not more, is kind of a big transition outside of what we grew up with. And now there's just this huge push for all these developers just to make these monstrosities Now beautiful houses, these awesome craftsmen, but they're not the houses we grew up with. So one of the things that we kind of love and by that, I'm sorry.

Speaker 3: 2:11

what do you mean? Like, not like the houses that we grew up with?

Speaker 1: 2:15

So like it would be the standard kind of Northern Virginia homes that we sell in 19th deal.

Speaker 2: 2:19

Yeah, I think we're feeling like they. A lot of these builders if you're talking about the builder piece, they're kind of popping up, especially in Arlington and Balls Church. These like real out of place houses. So one of the ways that we got started is during COVID we I was actually in a totally different career. I was working in marketing for 15 years in hospitality. So I worked for Marriott for 10 years, helped him for five and within three days of COVID my position was for a load 10 minutes.

Speaker 3: 2:50

Oh my.

Speaker 2: 2:50

God, I had a very cool job, which we always joked. Cool jobs didn't make it long in that industry and so we we loved renovating our own house. We had done that and didn't kill each other in 2015. Like Mike said, he grew up in the industry. He was investing in properties, flipping houses throughout and dipping in and out of actual like residential contracting, but we both had different full time careers and then, at the start of COVID, I started walking around our house and coming up with a lot of projects.

Speaker 1: 3:23

And it started getting real expensive on a single income household.

Speaker 2: 3:29

So then, mike, he found another investment property of flip. I know flips. Thank God for HGTV, flips are not a four letter word anymore.

Speaker 1: 3:37

No, not the other F word.

Speaker 2: 3:40

But so one of the things, though, going back to kind of what we grew up with, the first flip that we did together was in a neighborhood that we knew really well, where we had friends that grew up. We played back in those woods and a model of home this rambler that you find all over Northern Virginia that we both grew up playing in with various friends, and so it was really fun.

Speaker 2: 4:04

Not that exact house A model, and so it was really interesting for us instead of you know, a developer builder just demoing it, some huge house to actually take a home and remodel it, bring it up to kind of more modern and current kind of design and flow and rethink it, but not like completely change it so it feels like it's out of place. So that's kind of how we got started.

Speaker 1: 4:28

And I mean one thing we find is, you know, we started doing a lot of interior renovations for these homes. We're doing, like you know, relocations of kitchens and rearranging and, you know, making it more functional space. Yes, obviously making it pretty.

Speaker 3: 4:44

Also the other imperative.

Speaker 1: 4:45

But one thing was all the people who were coming into the house they were seeing, you know, there may not be like a huge volume of inventory in the market, but they were seeing what we were doing. And it was a little bit different because we were actually almost funny. We were building it for ourselves and, thoughtfully, we were building it for our friends and things that, and so we kind of felt like yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:06

So we had a lot more of just, instead of just, let's just get it, you know, white shaker cabinets and send it. It was more like what if we did it this way? Or what if we kind of adjusted the layout so that you actually, you know, you can get a crib in here, or you know? So kind of a little bit more of a of a idea is that we were making it for people, and then people, all the people who were going through it, they're like dude, I loved what you guys did there. Now, I didn't get that house or it wasn't right for me, but at the end of the day they were calling us and saying, hey, can you make that kitchen for me or can you do that bathroom for me?

Speaker 1: 5:40

Actually, funny enough, one of our first customers loved one of the bathrooms we did in one of the houses, so much she says, hey, jennifer, jennifer. She said I want that bathroom in the basement over there off of Slade Run. We're like, okay, cool, so let's get designing. And she's like no, I literally want that bathroom. Oh, that tile, that shower, the shower glass, that vanity, I want everything in that bathroom, I want it. So it was like, basically, it was like organic demand that we had kind of like pushing us out into it.

Speaker 1: 6:11

And I say it was like the COVID catalysts that really kind of kicked us off, because I want to be able to do it without Jackie and maybe she'd be able to do it without me? I don't know.

Speaker 3: 6:22

Now, what kind of style do you guys have as far as like home? Is there a particular like niche look or a particular style?

Speaker 1: 6:29

Well, we're not necessarily in the. I'm sorry we're not really investing as much anymore, but I think Jackie can kind of tell you some of the style that that we have.

Speaker 2: 6:37

Or yeah, yeah, so that's my part, it's a design yeah, so yeah so actually just backing up, to introduce us in what we do with the company. So Mike leads the build side, and so he's a general contractor. He manages all the subs, I'm the designer, and so I work hand to hand. Do you have to look? No thanks.

Speaker 3: 6:58

You did too.

Speaker 2: 7:00

So I am a designer and I work closely with our clients, with our vendors and then with our teams on site to pull through whatever design we come up with. And so in terms of our personal, our kind of company style, or even when we were investing more, we don't have a set style. I'm actually like a very firm believer in this. If you can rattle off a coined phrase to describe your style that quickly, then I do like to challenge my clients to say, well, let's think about that a little bit so it doesn't feel themy, or we're not just like picking up from a magazine the trend that is really popular right now, because I personally I think that all styles should be eclectic to some degree. I think you can have an underlying, you know, a modern vibe, or a real love of mid-century modern or a real love of antiques and kind of Victorian style. But I think balance is so important so that we don't end up with like one just a.

Speaker 2: 7:55

West Elm catalog.

Speaker 2: 7:56

Now that there's anything wrong with West Elm and so, but just variety, yeah, and I always tell my clients you know it's funny, as you, when I'm done, when we're working together. You're more than welcome to come over to my house anytime. But you won't actually know my personal style Because my job is not to help infuse what I think looks great. My job, especially coming from my background of marketing, is really to dig in, understand what you're drawn to, what you love, and help you elevate and pull it all together. I'm like your design friend or, you know, partner. So we've done projects where we'll have one project going that's like super mid-century modern, like a very updated take on a Brady Bunch style, which was so fun. And then, at the exact same time, we were working on this like ultra romantic Victorian antique. We were sourcing everything from. Yes, it was like so these are so we kind of stretch either way.

Speaker 3: 8:49

Okay, and did you guys ever think you guys would be working together?

Speaker 1: 8:53

No, to be honest, I don't think I ever really saw the path that was that were on. I mean, through the years I've had a couple of different projects that Jackie's helped with, but she's always had been really career driven and focused on what she was doing and there was not like a kind of an idea that you should quit and come with me and let's do this full time. It was absolutely happenstance and, you know, and very lucky I think, that we were able to kind of have this shift.

Speaker 1: 9:18

I mean, I think a lot of people's lives changed over the last you know couple years let's say the least, and I think you know, as I said, the COVID cat, I was really kind of came in and I think making the best of what was happening and I wouldn't change it for the world.

Speaker 2: 9:32

I do think you know, we we definitely never sat down at a table and said you should quit your job and let's dream up this company. Like Mike said. It all kind of just happened to us and we wrote it. But I was working in marketing, very career driven MBA. I just I was. I was like, okay, miss Boss, businesswoman, love it? Not really. And Mike was dabbling in this world. He was always working in it. I always enjoyed being a part of it. But when I'd say, two things were really clear that we figured we would work well together aside from just being married and enjoying each other. But we, when we planned our wedding, we had a lot of fun, we didn't want to kill each other the whole time and I was going to ask is it easy working with each other?

Speaker 2: 10:19

I know people are like okay, surprisingly Well it's difficult in some ways, it's really then when we renovated our own house. So we did a huge renovation on our own house in 2015. And we just, I think, realized then, well reflecting on that time, that we both kind of know our strengths and stay in our lands and then, tap each other.

Speaker 2: 10:41

So it's not that it's not like you know all roses working together, but that's normal. Right. I think fundamentally, though, the fact that I trust and rely and just think so highly of how his brain works and the things that he is great at, and I think and I at least feel like he is the exact same way with me, like he just is so supportive and trusts my judgment, and so with that, we're really able to work really well together, not to say, I think the downside is there's a married couple.

Speaker 1: 11:16

You take a lot of things at home. You take a lot at home right so we don't have anything at the office.

Speaker 1: 11:20

It's hard to leave things at the office because the home office and coworkers and you know we have our lives together, so leaving that at the door sometimes is a strain, but you know we're trying to set more boundaries. And then we have in this industry a lot of people are working nine to five and they only have a time to talk until the end of the day. So when we're doing a project with somebody they get home and then that's when they want to talk about everything when we've been dealing with all day. So there's a kind of a fine line of working after hours. But there isn't really kind of after hours, especially when you're, you know, running your own business.

Speaker 2: 11:51

Yes.

Speaker 3: 11:54

And then as far as marketing for your business, how does that go? How do you guys do that to reach other people? I mean?

Speaker 1: 12:01

right now. As I said, how we started was really kind of organically, and I that's, I think, was just kind of such a word of mouth. Yeah, well, it's just organically. People were coming and seeing our work, right? You, if you sit there and paint on the sidewalk and someone loves it, they're going to buy that painting. Well, we were doing that in houses and someone was coming by and they're like I want that.

Speaker 2: 12:19

So, as we were flipping and selling, yeah and the market 2020. And so, and then so doing.

Speaker 1: 12:25

Then we kind of went through that and then people were. You know, obviously, word of mouth was huge and that's still huge for us. You know, again, the extended word of mouth is the social word of mouth, which is, you know, reviews, and you know people referring on next door say, hey, anybody know good contract. Well, four people come in and say, hey, I'm doing his own build, did something awesome for us, please reach out to them. And they do so. You know, we have this great kind of momentum, to say the least, and it's based on, you know, I mean, I think a lot of it is what people are purchasing. What are they buying? Is they're buying us? You know, we have a lot of experience, we have built a kind of a process and we're able to really kind of deliver. We have the components in place, we have the great individuals that we're working with.

Speaker 1: 13:13

So, you know, as a general contractor, I say I'm a generalist, you know, as a, I know a little about a lot, right, and I'm not a specialist necessarily in any single trade. But that's why we then find and source the best tradesmen in those different verticals that we can then say hey, listen, this is my plumber. He's going to know everything we need to know about plumbing. Right, I'm not going to tell you that.

Speaker 1: 13:36

Exactly. So I'm not going to sit here and tell you exactly what needs to happen Now. I know what typically has to happen, but I'm going to rely on the expertise of others, and so we really try to fill all our knowledge gaps, and we're not someone that, we're not a couple that are going to tell you know, sorry, no.

Speaker 1: 13:54

I love that we're going to. You know there's not going to be areas where I'm just going to lie and tell you that I know something and I don't Cause you know what. You can't get caught lying if you don't lie and that's why we always say, above board transparency is key, and I'm sure they appreciate the integrity. Yeah, exactly so transparency is key and that's what we kind of really carry through is really want to be honest, real transparent and just kind of delivering. You know you're buying us and we're not going to sit there and be us.

Speaker 2: 14:18

Yeah, I think to just going back to kind of the marketing piece. It's absolutely word of mouth, it's it's the proof is in the pudding. I think when people see what we've done in neighborhoods, there's a lot of trust there. With these older homes, especially that we've been in the home, we know what to do. We're not some like big glitzy company that will come in and be like, oh, you've got to tear this all down. We recognize the models of these homes. We grew up in the area. Nothing scares us. So we have so many people that will go into their house and they're like, oh my God, I'm so embarrassed, like, don't look at the basement, it's totally unfinished, and especially coming from our background and flipping. We're like, oh my God, we bought the kids' houses I've been pregnant with our second.

Speaker 2: 15:00

while we were working flipping houses and there were a number of houses that I wasn't even like I had to wear masks and very careful and yes, they were so gross. So yeah, nothing says that way.

Speaker 1: 15:09

We're, I think, three quarters of the way done with a large project that when we got into we had. I had removed 13 30 yard dumpsters of trash and debris, which, math wise, is 39 cubic yards of trash just junk. It was the most junk laid in place I've ever seen.

Speaker 2: 15:30

But, you know, yeah, it's impressive.

Speaker 1: 15:33

So it was, but you know it was one of those things where you know that's part of the adventure. Yeah, it's not. It's not necessarily the end goal. The glow up yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 15:41

Well, that's our favorite part. You know, I I recently heard a contractor and design team that I follow and I really love they build out in Utah and he was talking and he was like somebody asked him a question Do you guys renovate or do only two new builds? And his response was, oh, we only build new because renovations are really hard and there's so many unknowns.

Speaker 2: 16:04

It's a lot simpler in some ways to just tear down and build, but that's not for everyone. I mean, that's super expensive, that prices people that we know and love in these communities, out of these areas, and so we both love the challenge, that we love going to a space and saying, all right, of course we could just do this huge addition and get what we want. How can we really creative about how we rework the space to achieve what this family needs and to think smart about how we might adjust things.

Speaker 2: 16:33

Maybe a small addition, but think creatively as opposed to just like blank slate. Let's build this beautiful.

Speaker 1: 16:39

And even beyond that, just even like granular. The granularity of like the function of how am I going to accomplish a bathroom here? How am I going to get plumbing from A to B with all of these components that I can't touch in the way, so you know, really is just problem solving and I really thrive off that. So it's not just I would always say it's not if it's how, and there's always a way and just got to figure it out, and so we just sit there and sometimes it's just staring at it and then you have that just like the flash and you're like I got it, I got it, let's go move on, and it's just so gratifying. So I love that that component of it of being able to really just just do that mental flex. It's just, you know, finding solutions. It just really really drives it.

Speaker 3: 17:20

Okay, and then have you guys had any challenges as far as with the business that you would like to share and how you overcame that?

Speaker 2: 17:28

I think you know my kind of touch on this earlier. As far as boundaries and kind of process goes, we've definitely had to figure out how to still be authentic to who we are. We like to get very close to our clients. We are relationship people. We are definitely not the contractors that are gonna come in and sell you and then you're never gonna see us again or we're not gonna answer our phone. We're on site basically daily, and so that, though, we've had to really challenge ourselves to figure out how to set those boundaries though, because that casual kind of nature really fluid people, you know, unlike some of the builders it's like they lock you into something and then everything's a change order. That's not really our model. However, with that flexibility and fluidity and closeness with clients, we've definitely had to then figure out how to set boundaries, how to set a process that protects us, protects the client too, and formalize things in a way that also doesn't take the humanity out of it.

Speaker 1: 18:32

And there's kind of two things that I think, as any business owner, you'll find. I mean, there's things that you don't know, that you find out, and sometimes it's the hard way, sometimes the easy way. Well, we love incorporating technology. Or I'd like to think we're young and we have phones and we have all the stuff and there's all kinds of like cool software.

Speaker 1: 18:48

You know, I know that I'm not sliding other contractors in the least, but there's a lot of these guys. They're old timers, they've been doing things, they're right there, they're way for so long. What we love incorporating are new tech and new ideas and how we can better operate and optimize our time and everyone else's, and it's a transparency and visibility into the project, and so we love using project management software to really kind of integrate. We have our customers have their own website, basically, or a portal they can log in, and we have the Gantt Sharks and all the calendar events and then we have back and forth questions and decision and pictures and all that fun stuff. So we like to keep it digital. It helps us streamline our communications because I don't know how many times it's happened but all have a conversation with one of the customers and the spouse, me, will have a conversation on text, and then there'll be a three way email and then there's one with Jackie and then there's a tech and it's a mess.

Speaker 2: 19:43

Oh well, I always joke that half of my job is marriage counselor.

Speaker 3: 19:47

I can see that.

Speaker 1: 19:48

Exactly so, yeah, there's a lot of decisions that need to be made across the board. Another thing is that. So, besides tech, tech can help solve some problems, but without having the basis of the how to run the business itself. You learn it, but you're not taught it. It's not something you're taught in school. You can go ahead and take some classes and whatnot, but what we did is I have enough know-how, I was able to set it up, get all this, and we rely on accountants and all this other stuff. Make sure that we're structured right. The business, yeah, exactly the business. And one thing, what we really I think had some of the largest takeaway was we hired coaches. We hired business coaches.

Speaker 3: 20:26

I always hear that about business owners, that they get coaches and it's a game changer.

Speaker 2: 20:30

We really struggle that. First we were like this is a huge investment, Do we really need this?

Speaker 1: 20:34

Yeah, we had a contractor's coach that literally helped teach us how to be better contractors and gave us tools and know-how and just basically fast tracked it Helped us avoid what I would say a lot of landmines.

Speaker 2: 20:48

Yeah, and it wasn't. We didn't talk about building code and paying customers His guidance was more about your contract and how you, when you deliver a proposal, do you get on the phone Like your welcome packet, things like? That that he really experienced over the years and knows tons of contracts with, or we would go to him with a problem. It was our business therapist.

Speaker 3: 21:11

That's nice to have.

Speaker 2: 21:13

Oh my God, we're really struggling, like we just ran into this issue. What do we do? We're thinking through a couple options.

Speaker 1: 21:20

The customer is this we don't wanna do a change order, but I think it is out of the scope. Blah, blah, blah. And so he's like you know part of it's. Just you gotta be confident. This is part of how it goes, which was and that's like.

Speaker 2: 21:30

To me. That's one of the biggest pieces of advice I can give. Any small business is to find your mentors in the industry and people who are willing to open up and to give you that guidance and to bounce ideas off of. I know Mike Put it out there.

Speaker 2: 21:43

With, like our contractor, a GC that we used to renovate our house when we were both really busy in our different careers, like he's still in the industry and he's a huge resource for Mike and I know for me, like from a design perspective, I know a few designers that I can pop ideas off of, but then I also, if you can't find a mentor locally or, you know, can't find the time for that even just constantly digging in for information I follow a lot of designers and design.

Speaker 3: 22:11

That's a good way to get inspiration.

Speaker 2: 22:13

It is. There's so much information that people are willing to share and so, you know, I get so many ideas. I'll come off Instagram and I'm like, oh my God, I just did this Q and A with you know, yeah, I forpretty this designer that I love and she showed her welcome pack and I didn't think about including that in there. You know things like that that are just great resources to constantly be learning. That's awesome.

Speaker 1: 22:34

And again, you know, we've learned something new every day, and you know, sometimes it's trial through pain, growth through pain, but sometimes it's, you know, hey, that's a really cool thing we can do, that's that thing would add a lot of value, and so we try to. You know again, we want to get a project in and out as clean as possible, and you know what I think. God forbid. Someone has fun in construction.

Speaker 3: 22:58

God forbid.

Speaker 1: 22:59

But some of our customers do. I mean, there's always going to be pain, but there's always not necessarily always be pain, but there's always kind of the struggle and the trials and there's decision fatigue. So I was like I don't care anymore, you pick that's like. No, I get it, I feel it, but you know we, my job is to say no, we're gonna care, because you're spending so much money. No, no, you do it.

Speaker 2: 23:18

I will help you pick, but we are not just like painting the whole house the same color.

Speaker 3: 23:22

And I'm sure they appreciate that in the end, Like you know what You're right.

Speaker 2: 23:25

Thank you for pulling through and not giving up. One of the things that I like to do is push as many decisions through decisions at once, so that people are really thinking big picture, but at the same time, what I really try to do is navigate, know each person and come up almost with like a custom plan for designing and selections based on when I get to know the person, because some people I don't want them to sit in a room for two hours and design an entire kitchen and pick every finish, because some of these ideas are gonna come out organically, yes, but at the same time I don't want every decision to linger. So for a full two months, got it Every day I'm asking you okay, now we have to pick this. And so it's kind of that fine line of, most importantly, really digging in deep with people, getting to know them and then figuring out how we can make the process as comfortable and productive as possible.

Speaker 3: 24:11

No, I'm sure they appreciate that that's not.

Speaker 1: 24:14

And on that service level right, we aren't just, this isn't a business transaction for us. We really are emotionally invested.

Speaker 3: 24:20

That comes through with your personality just the way you guys talk about it. We're passionate about it. I love it.

Speaker 1: 24:26

We're passionate about it. This is something I love. I mean, at the end of the day, we have an impact in the real world, we have an impact in people's lives, and that's also a huge stressor, right. We want to do the best for our customers and we want to do the best for everyone, so we're gonna go above and beyond and do what is necessary whenever it takes, and I think it really kind of comes out when we can deliver a much more kind of holistic product, when the customer can look back at their whole experience they're. I think I'd like to say that most of them had a pretty good thing to say about us.

Speaker 3: 24:58

Yeah, I can see that, and we say you know All of them All of them.

Speaker 2: 25:02

I believe it. Yeah, construction is.

Speaker 3: 25:04

it's such an emotional roller coaster and it's one that like I don't think about that, I just like get it done, let's go, okay. But so you know the other thing.

Speaker 2: 25:11

Just going back to my like geeking out on psychology which is my like real day job. I like to say my side hustle is just like psychoanalyzing everything everyone wants.

Speaker 1: 25:18

Geeking out is judging I know.

Speaker 2: 25:22

I mean, I'm just thinking. But people, Construction is one of the strangest and most foreign purchases you'll ever make because it's a lot of money. You've spent your entire life hearing horror stories the contractor who disappeared with your money, the. The guy who didn't do it correctly, the.

Speaker 1: 25:41

You know the kitchen cabinets like glitch whatever calls equal, that a lot of times it's scar tissue.

Speaker 2: 25:45

Yeah, yeah, I just shoot, even if they've never done a renovation. It's incredibly expensive and you're kind of Signing on and hoping for the best. You are also signing on, you don't know how it's all gonna look. A lot on the line. A lot on the line when you buy a car. Even if you buy a really expensive car, it's a huge investment. And then you immediately walk away with this pretty thing, though, and you get to be like oh my god, okay, I know I just spent that much money, but look at my cool new car.

Speaker 2: 26:09

You, you commit to all this spend. You obviously don't pay it all up front, but and then you don't get to see this finished product for quite some time. Mm-hmm. And actually, before you even see the finished product, you take your kitchen, which maybe you didn't love, maybe you hate it, hmm. And then, all of a sudden, your house just gets completely Upeded and you have to live through this renovation, which is really tough, and a lot of our clients because we're in more of the renovation business, we're not doing new builds a lot of her clients live through the renovations. A lot of them are in tight spaces to begin with. They, a lot of them have little kids that got pets, they've got work from home lives, like. So there's a huge emotional roller coaster of like I'm so excited, okay, I think I can see the potential, can't wait to get started.

Speaker 2: 26:50

And then everything gets demoed in a day it's like oh, this is gonna be done in like a week overwhelming and then it gets real dirty and we try to keep our job sites really clean, but like, and then you are living in this world for a long time and so it's it's very emotional for people and so we like to like I actually we do an intro call, we kick off a project where we like walk through that, even just to be like expectations.

Speaker 1: 27:15

It's what is always says the the first 25% of work. No, sir, the first 75% of the project happens in the first 25% of the time. Yeah, the last 75% of time is all of the detail and that is like kind of.

Speaker 1: 27:30

Then you feel there's this weird thing was the project launches, the demo happens, the floor is clear, the walls are bare, everything's ready to go, and then everything Screeches to a halt when they're waiting to just make sure the word we're doing all of the plumbing, everything that's in the walls. It just takes time. It's not something that we want to rush and it feels like things kind of Slowdown, trying to see which it does on the grander scheme.

Speaker 2: 27:56

But the end of it some impact. Yeah, they're not slowing down like.

Speaker 1: 28:00

Yeah, but then then and then it picks back up with just large event. So it kind of launches plateaus, launches plateaus and then before long, where you know, everything is starting to get put back together and we're kind of Spackling and painting on the way out of the house and just dusting and going it is emotional for people, though you know, and we see all different types of personalities and even those that have done renovations before you know that it's.

Speaker 2: 28:20

it's a huge, not only Financial investment, it's a huge time commitment. You know, we people have these busy lives and careers and families, and you have to make time for planning your renovation, you know.

Speaker 2: 28:34

I mean, we do have a lot of people who Want to meet on the weekends or want to meet in the evenings, and it's like we like run a business and also have a family. Those boundaries we were talking about, these are super important and you have to commit to it, and so we try to consolidate and be really respectful of people's Jobs and their priorities. But you'll find most so many of the shops and places we have to visit are only open nine to five, yeah, during the week, because, and so that's the investment, that's the time and that's a time investment upfront.

Speaker 1: 29:03

Yeah, with us, with with our vendors, yeah, sure that you know we can get everything. What? Because one thing that we do also Want to make sure happens and we don't want to happen, the wrong way is when we do a lot of upfront planning. Obviously, you know we've been talking a lot about this it's just really more planning you can do up front and it helps a lot. Everything helps everything down the line so.

Speaker 1: 29:28

One of the things that we do for safer a bathroom or kitchen. We try to get everything planned out and what is going to be purchased, all the finished items that are going to be Installed one thing that helps us with with our schedule, because if we know that the cabinet line that we're going to that going to be selecting is six months out, well, we're not going to demo your kitchen today and leave you in the bear for for six months without, without a kitchen. Yeah, so part of this, we really want to make sure that we can get as much upfront planning done so that we can be most efficient. I don't, I don't want yeah, I don't want to be on site in Involved in your, your home, longer than I have to. One thing we really try to do is that we we do have our crews stay on site on single jobs. We don't. We don't parse them out into multiple jobs at the same time. We have multiple crews, but we'll take them.

Speaker 1: 30:18

So the dedicated doesn't have them on site for as long as they can. As long as we can take it, sometimes all the way to finish, we can do, you know, things that other vendor, other contractors might take twice as long to do. We can be just really more efficient and being able to apply and make sure that you know my guys will be there Monday through Saturday, sometimes Sunday, if you know if they'll have us, but really Monday through Saturday, whereas you know I've seen other crews, other companies. They'll have Someone on Tuesday here and then on Thursday They'll get another site and then Friday another site, then For a Saturday back at your site. So you know, for us there's a lot more management and doing that now I always say that I'd rather make one person really happy than three people Not happy, you know. So we can do three jobs Just as quick as you could, do three jobs as if you do them one at a time, versus doing all at the same time.

Speaker 3: 31:08

Now it's just you guys running the show. Like, do you guys have like any other employee ever considered?

Speaker 2: 31:13

So we have, we've. We've brought a couple at different times. We brought on some support junior junior PM. Project managers, construction, and we haven't found the perfect mix of what we need because that didn't end at the which is we well.

Speaker 2: 31:27

So we because M&J is Mike and Jackie design a belt. You know we've we've brought on some people that maybe weren't experienced enough to Really truly be a true project manager in what we needed, because we we really need somebody who can like Take some of this off of us, whereas, you know, the thing about hiring and I have this was a big part of my last career People are only gonna be as successful as you have time to train them and help grow them, and so we are super busy. We also have two children, and so we found that at the junior project management level, we didn't necessarily have the infrastructure or the time to be able to train up and like really give somebody that much time.

Speaker 2: 32:12

We kind of needed somebody who could like take it back and what we believe is like it is bringing on like a third person to meet with clients, like it has to be somebody who can embody and trust and so, because you're mostly working with us, and so now what we're seeing is we probably need some more support, kind of across the board, more like from a labor perspective, knowing Understanding construction, being able to work with our guys and get materials if needed, be a mini-mike dump truck yeah, and a mini-jacket yeah, and I think that's one thing.

Speaker 1: 32:42

We we have made hires and they were great and they filled a number of gaps, but every time we did, we we identified as like well, is that really where we need the hell? Or how do we, you know, how can we fully maximize their position to make them successful? And sometimes is we can't invest that much time to be able to bring someone that junior up and maybe what they're able to do is not something that we really need done that they're really good at. So there was a couple times we're just wasn't a great fit. I think there will be scale that we will need to have have more support.

Speaker 3: 33:12

You guys seem like on the come up, you know.

Speaker 1: 33:15

We gotta figure out how.

Speaker 2: 33:17

We're doing now, though, is we kind of took a step back to think okay, where our gaps, where, where are we struggling, where do we need help and and check he's gonna swap, you know, it's like analysis background. So like I, you know there's our strengths and weaknesses. It was literally Thursday and we're like laying around and I'm like I've started and my phone's going.

Speaker 2: 33:44

When you really take a step back, because it can be when you're really busy, and this is what happened with us. Yeah, we were super busy and we're like, oh my god, we need to hire somebody, and so and your brother actually gave me some of the best advice I've ever heard, and I'm sure he heard it.

Speaker 3: 33:59

He's a.

Speaker 2: 34:00

Entrepreneur as well, clearly runs in their blood clearly not in mind, by the way. I was like terrified.

Speaker 3: 34:05

Well, it does. Now it will now.

Speaker 2: 34:07

But he said hi or slow, and you fire fast. And I think what happens and this happened in my old world too so often, especially when you're Smaller and we're nimble you don't hire until you really really need it, and then you're like scrambling scrambling and you're like trying to make things work. So you'll meet somebody and you're like, okay, this is great, like I could see it you know and you're not about 60% there.

Speaker 2: 34:31

You know, you're kind of just like, oh my god, this is it like this is gonna save us. And so what we've really been trying to ask ourselves is like what exactly do we need, and is it a person that can help fill that? Or are there tools, are there softwares? Like Mike mentioned, we actually we had a couple different project management systems we were using and therefore we were like, okay, we need a project manager and I.

Speaker 2: 34:52

Well, a little bit. But so then we realized what if we actually just invest in a more sophisticated? It's an expensive tool, but we use builder trend. We absolutely love it. Yeah, it's, it's not cheap, but that filled so many of those gaps that now we don't need like a mini mic, running to these job sites and checking in because our guys Can be in there. We can be in there. It's just more consolidated.

Speaker 2: 35:12

Yes, we're trying kind of challenging ourselves to think how can we fill some of these gaps with technology, with software, with External support? You know, can we pay a bookkeeper to do these reconciliations and our quick books, as opposed to Bringing on somebody that we have to pay benefits for, that, we have to train that, you know. So we've been thinking a little bit that way too, of like that way we give ourselves some time to think alright, once we outsource some of that to either technology or, you know, there's just so many things out there that can help support your business that don't have to be a full-time employee, and then, once we get through some of that, then we can kind of see okay, do we need a third person?

Speaker 3: 35:54

And on that note, what advice would you give to small business owners who are also looking to hire or thinking about it or even just starting a business?

Speaker 2: 36:04

I really think exploring both the free and paid resources out there is a great first place to start, because it is really scary as a business owner to write a paycheck.

Speaker 1: 36:18

Well, that's not it. You're also giving a piece of your business to somebody that's right, I mean. I think that's the one of the.

Speaker 2: 36:24

It's your money Like it's it's your baby, it's your baby, it's your money, you know like. So, when I was at Incorporate, somebody came and said we have a hiring budget. That budget didn't. It's not your money, you know it's not. Like if you don't hire this person or if things get slower in the hotel industry, they're going to. You're still going to pay this person out of your own pot, Like, whereas when you're in a small business, it's really really scary to commit. There's a lot of financial investment to train people, to get them set up with benefits, and so explore as much as you can of and make sure you know exactly what you need and that this person can be set up for success.

Speaker 1: 37:01

Right? Well, I think it's the time investment. So I think one of the things that will be very important that we just really were not equipped or prepared for mentally to be able to commit the amount of time it would take to make sure that the position was able to be Someone would be able to be successful in. So it really you have to sit there, you have to plan the training, you have to get them up to speed.

Speaker 2: 37:21

I give us time but I also think we we uncovered, though, like what I was saying earlier is that we?

Speaker 2: 37:26

maybe didn't even need that to begin with and we thought we did because we wanted a quick solve. And what I will say is hiring is not. It should be like you should explore and really dig in to make sure that what you really need is personnel, before you just hire somebody, because sometimes what you need is something very different and you're hoping that like, okay, I'm just going to hire this person and they're going to make these problems go away, but you know they it won't necessarily.

Speaker 1: 37:54

And it might make more problems. Yeah, but yeah, just the same thing is hire slow, fire fast.

Speaker 2: 37:59

Yes, and so many small businesses, like you know, hire support, get somebody outsource your bookkeeping. That is a great one. We also, you know, speaking of coaches we brought on very early on. We had an engagement with a woman who she's not an accountant, she's like a bookkeeper and an expert in big books.

Speaker 1: 38:16

Well, she was an expire. It was an expire business wire.

Speaker 2: 38:23

But she helped train us in QuickBooks. She helped simplify us so that we weren't spending so much time like getting really confused or messing up the books. Yeah, because the books are really important, especially in our industry.

Speaker 1: 38:34

Well, that's the thing is, you know, especially on the back end. You don't. You can't manage what you don't know and that's one of the biggest shortcomings of running a business is maintaining and managing the back end bookkeeping so you can actually have visibility into the health of the company. A lot of people use their bank account right, but they're not taking into account future liabilities and knowing that, like hey, I might have $100,000 in the account, but I've got $110,000 of the liabilities that are going to be paying in the next like two months. So do you really have $100,000 or are you negative $10,000?

Speaker 3: 39:07

Oh my gosh, that's a great way to look at it.

Speaker 1: 39:09

So you have to really. So, without knowing and having them set up in the foundation for your bookkeeping, you can't really understand the business. Because maybe, if you do have $100,000 in the bank and you're like, hey, well, I'm going to go ahead and buy this equipment today, thinking that you have $100,000, even though you're actually technically $10,000 in the whole and then you just spent $20,000 on some equipment. Now you're $30,000 in the whole versus like being very smart in how you can really manage and run the business, because then you're living basically hand-to-mouth Every money comes in and goes right out, and that's what you don't want. That's not a way to successfully run a business.

Speaker 2: 39:45

I think, just like running a government, just like anything being a mom, it's about your community too. You need to hire or seek out experts that can help you grow when you're a small business, and sometimes those resources can be free. Like I mentioned, instagram for us it sounds silly, but I can't tell you how often we both follow these different builders and stuff or these tile installers who, it's like, just every day they're posting these really beautiful, really interesting things that are like, oh, that's cool. That's an interesting way that they did that. Because you're always growing. That's free, that's just free learning. There's podcasts, there's business books, and then there's experts that can help you, because most people that start a business, they're not going to be a jack of all trades, they're not an expert in everything. They don't necessarily know tax law and understand bookkeeping if they've got this amazing idea for a company, and so surrounding yourself with experts I think, is to me one of them and just resources, people that you can bounce ideas off of Getting. I know people who are in investment groups or they're in small business groups. Go to the small business meetup, meet other small business leaders like you, because you can learn so much.

Speaker 2: 40:54

I even I was struggling last year because I didn't work for a designer, and so I was struggling before we did this and we faced this challenge where I felt like I had these designs, I had all this information between me and the client and this vision, and then I was struggling to find the best way to communicate that to the guys and it was feeling like, basically, I just had to be on site to tell them and that is not a way to do things.

Speaker 2: 41:24

My kid would be sick or I'd be needed someplace else and they're getting ready to lay tile and it's like, oh, but I needed to be there to like make sure that they laid it. Yeah, it wasn't working, and so I ended up doing a call with a company that are local. They're called Link and Layer and they help small businesses. They actually are a big digital like. They'll do people's websites and a lot of branding and marketing. However, they're also just two women who partnered up and started a business, and so they're also just give incredible strategic support. So I did this call with them, I gave them some background and they are not designers, I mean, I guess they're web designers.

Speaker 2: 42:00

They are not in contracting. They have never worked for a design build and it was one of the most productive, incredible calls for me ever because they listened to what I was saying. They're just smart women. One of them had lived through renovation and so she's like I have some ideas. Actually, what about this? But, and it was so helpful and that was I think it was like $100 for the hour and it was the best $100 of our respect.

Speaker 3: 42:23

Wow, I highly recommend them Again.

Speaker 2: 42:25

What is their name? Link and Layer. Link and Layer. Yeah, and they were just awesome and they just and they do the host meetups Like I haven't felt like I'd need it to engage in those types of things, but they have so many resources for small business owners and especially women, who you know want to connect with other small business owners, so I think seeking out those things in your community is huge.

Speaker 3: 42:45

Okay, that's great advice there, and now I know you guys live and breathe this. What do you guys do outside of work? Like would you guys enjoy any hobbies, or is it always like on the grind?

Speaker 2: 42:56

Funny thing, we bought a house, so we are a little distracted right now in our spare time because we bought a house that we intended as an investment property and then saw the incredible potential and so now we are building it for us. So we've got our own big renovation, which is a huge undertaking. I'm very excited. It takes up a lot of our time.

Speaker 1: 43:16

What largest project to date for MJ Design and Build?

Speaker 2: 43:19

Like this is why we love investment properties and flips because and doing our own projects. Well, yeah, that's the couple of properties.

Speaker 1: 43:25

The leveling up. So this is basically we've been. You know, we do a lot of stuff for ourselves. We work with a lot of contractors that we hire for our own projects, and so one thing is is that there's rarely a case where we try something new on a customer. We always do it for ourselves.

Speaker 1: 43:40

So, raci, we're building a house for ourselves, not that we're really going to want to be in the home building market. We have done a ton of additions, we've done all this other stuff, but right now we are building a house, and so when we're talking about MJ Design and Build and the capabilities of what we're able to accomplish and have a confidence into, as I told you, I don't want to be as the customers, so I'm going to be confident in something that I've done before, and so a lot of times, one of the values of working with us is that we have a number of projects that we're doing across the board for ourselves, and we are doing basically what we're doing for our customers already for ourselves. So we're, we're, we're, we're clear in the field and making sure that we're going to be able to do it successfully and, you know, as seamlessly as possible.

Speaker 2: 44:18

Okay, I think so right now that's taking up a lot of our time. We have two little boys. We've got a six year old and a two and a half year old, so we definitely stay busy with them. We love to travel. I know everybody says that.

Speaker 3: 44:31

We definitely.

Speaker 2: 44:31

I mean it's a great thing it is, you know what's interesting about being a small business is you. You have so much more depending on, I guess, what your small business is. But in a lot of ways you're so in control of your schedule and how many clients you have on. So it's great because you don't have to ask for permission to go on vacation, right.

Speaker 1: 44:49

Like yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:50

But you can't go on. Pto, there is no as big as PTO. Like you, we went to Italy last year and we trust our guys, we love our guys. However, we can't not be in the country for two weeks while projects going on, and so, while it's amazing that we had this flexibility to take our family to Italy and really disconnect from work, but that also meant like we didn't schedule work for that whole month which was like yeah, which is scary a little bit.

Speaker 1: 45:15

Yeah, scale back, but you know, make sure. But you know, as I always say, is that you know quitting your nine to five 40 hour a week job and we started our own business to work 80 hours a week, yeah, no more.

Speaker 3: 45:24

The dedication? Yeah, they're ties and lows, you know, with everything. Yep.

Speaker 1: 45:29

Do now what others want so you can live later like others can. There you go. I'm going to quote that there.

Speaker 2: 45:36

Yeah, we do, especially because we don't work in an office anymore. We like to go out a lot, we like to eat out, we just like to. We're in this kind of constant seeking of balance, you know, and so.

Speaker 1: 45:49

Mike is very outdoorsy.

Speaker 2: 45:51

He likes to go dirt biking.

Speaker 1: 45:52

Yeah, do all kinds of stuff hiking, camping, biking, all the fun stuff.

Speaker 3: 45:56

All the fun stuff.

Speaker 1: 45:57

Adventures, adventures. That's what it's all about it gets me close to risk of death. I like it.

Speaker 3: 46:03

You got the death part, just close.

Speaker 1: 46:06

Grazing it, grazing it, ok, grazing it. There's always a chance.

Speaker 3: 46:09

We'll allow that. All right, and just to wrap it up here, if you could have one message that you could give to the world you have a megaphone here what would that be?

Speaker 1: 46:20

That's a really great question. I said mm.

Speaker 2: 46:26

My first thought is like, I don't know Bring your animals inside.

Speaker 1: 46:31

What? Don't forget to spay and noodle your.

Speaker 3: 46:35

Catch and release A little lover.

Speaker 2: 46:36

Go ahead.

Speaker 1: 46:38

Well, I mean, I think you know if it comes back to. So, circling back to the business, what is one of the most important things that we would probably tell our customers to do? As you know and I say it's you know I have one.

Speaker 2: 46:50

Yeah, I think I have one. Give it, give it to us. So trust your gut and trust yourself. I struggled so hard with a master syndrome when we started this I felt like I had no business calling myself a designer, even though I was getting Trust your gut.

Speaker 3: 47:09

You were to quit, I would quit. I tried to quit multiple times.

Speaker 1: 47:11

You can't quit. I tried to quit. She's like I'm talking about the family. You can't.

Speaker 2: 47:15

I was like no, I want to quit. And he's like you can't.

Speaker 1: 47:18

I'm a chad design belt.

Speaker 2: 47:19

I hate to break it down.

Speaker 3: 47:20

It's just M build.

Speaker 2: 47:21

My master syndrome is out of this world and it was very new for me. I've always been a super confident person, but we took such a leap and such a jump and what I have found is I was just so convinced. No, I'm not trained. Nobody crowned me a designer, but so many. I started digging in and finding that so many of my favorite designers, like Shamiki, I mean look at her now.

Speaker 2: 47:46

I for pretty. I love her so much. None of them went to school for this. She was an elementary school teacher and Shamiki was in marketing. They just started it. They trusted and then they learned and they got the education to back them up, which I did too. But do not let your imposter syndrome get in the way. This is especially for women. No offense, but I have not met many men, him included, that suffer from imposter syndrome. It's just incredible energy that they all have.

Speaker 2: 48:11

We build For women do whatever it takes to ignore, to try to get past that imposter syndrome.

Speaker 1: 48:17

I mean to piggyback on that. It's on. That's not one thing, it's just. Generally, I think there is scary, scary moments. You start doing things you haven't done before. You're going down these untread paths. You're path finding right. I think one of the things is you have to realize is that you can't get the analysis process. You have to just do it sometimes. And one of the things that's most important is that you are going to make mistakes. It's 100% going to happen. Make a mistake, it's going to happen. Do not fear it. Just make sure you're doing as much as you can up front to prevent it. Now you can't guarantee we're not going to make more mistakes, because I guarantee you it will. But at the end of the day, don't live in fear. You have to move forward, because you're never going to get better unless you do it Right. So that's, I think, the thing.

Speaker 2: 49:05

Trust yourself, great Trust yourself and be nice to your animals.

Speaker 1: 49:09

Don't forget to spay a neuter. Catch and release.

Speaker 3: 49:11

Perfect. Thank you guys so much. That was great, that was very. You guys have great energy, energy.

Speaker 1: 49:18

Energy.

Speaker 3: 49:19

Oh, my gosh Barbie.